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An important thing to realise about the Australian banking market is that we're already a world leader in the adoption of contactless payments using our credit

An important thing to realise about the Australian banking market is that we're already a world leader in the adoption of contactless payments using our credit cards. (And unlike the US, our floor limit is $100, which covers almost all transactions. When exceeded, most terminals just prompt for your PIN.) I'm sure Apple Pay is great, but with an entire continent already familiar with tapping their credit card, tapping a phone doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

Alphasite_ 10y ago
Honestly it's he same in most places but it's still convenient not to have to worry about your wallet.
- sjwright 10y ago
  It really isn't the same. A May 2015 survey by RF Intelligence Group, called ‘Global Payments Evaluation Study’, based on 32,000 respondents in 16 countries found that 66 per cent of Australians are aware that they own a contactless payment card and 53 per cent have made a contactless transaction. By contrast, just 14 per cent of Americans own a contactless card and only 9 per cent have used one for a payment. http://www.bpaybanter.com.au/news-views/why-do-australians-lead-the-way-in-contactless-pay http://www.bpaybanter.com.au/news-views/why-do-australians-l...
  - dalore 10y ago
    Australia had EFTPOS which was a way of using your debit card to buy stuff, way before the VISA network really took off.
  - Alphasite_ 10y ago
    I don't live in the US, I mean in most developed economies contactless is fairly common place.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Well, take Germany. Every store supports contactless, but MasterCard refuses to offer EC Cards with contactless, and wants to move customers to credit cards (which earn them far more profit – over 20 times the transaction fee). Oh, and we don’t get Android Pay either. As a result, the experience is horrible. And for every single bit US corporations are to blame.
- eon1 10y ago
  Really? I had a discussion with an American about this a while ago and they seemed stunned at how easy and efficient tap'n'go sounded compared to what they had available. I mean, we're fairly behind in most things here, but if you tried to pay for groceries with a cheque, in 99.9% of places you would be (rightly) laughed out of the store.
  - flukus 10y ago
    From what I understand (which could well be wrong), it's not uncommon for Americans to get literal pay cheques either. Here we've had direct bank transfers for my entire adult life (15+ years).
    - 6nf 10y ago
      I'm 37 in Australia and I've literally never had a chequebook in my life. I think one time I used a bank cheque for a real estate transaction but that was a decade ago.
  - nly 10y ago
    In the States its not uncommon to just have your card swiped in grocery stores and not even have to sign. Effectively they've just made the old insecure magstripe & sig system more convenient (and insecure).
- sjwright 10y ago
  I still have to worry about my wallet because I need my driver license, I need an amount of cash, and I need my corporate swipe card. I would also need my physical credit cards for accessing ATMs and the small minority of merchants that don't have a contactless terminal. (A few places still only have chip+pin; one of my favourite coffee shops is cash only business.) My wallet is very slim; it would be more hassle having to think about whether I needed it or not, than to just have it on me at all times.
  - iamshs 10y ago
    As someone coming from Canada to Australia, and who held the same viewpoint; you just need to experience Apply Pay. Ozland seriously sucks now when compared to Canada for me regarding NFC payments. Idiots are trying to create a cartel here.
    - sjwright 10y ago
      I've used and experienced Apple Pay. It's certainly convenient. Don't see how it's more convenient than tapping my credit card, an object I would still be carrying even if I had Apple Pay.
    - eon1 10y ago
      I'm genuinely curious; what is The Apple Pay Experience? What sucks so bad about our current setup? What is so hugely different about tapping your phone instead of a card that it could possibly convince me to go through 3-4 extra steps? I really don't get it.
      - pilif 10y ago
        For me, Apple Pay has two advantages over a contactless card: - it's only active after explicit user interaction. There is no way for somebody with an rogue device to steal money from me. - conversely, there's no limit after which a transaction requires pin entry. Here in Switzerland, the limit for contactless cards is CHF 50 after which you have to still type in your pin. With Apple Pay, there is no limit. Both of these make Apple Pay very valuable to me. There's one more thing: I also have a contactless debit card (which I would love to be available on Apple Pay, but that's probably never going to happen) and the moment a reader detects more than one card, it refuses contacless operation. By having the credit card on the watch, they are separated far enough from each other, so I can always pay contactless. This is a problem that would be fixable with better UX on the readers.
yalogin 10y ago
The sales pitch for Apple pay is exactly that, you don't have to carry your cards since you will be carrying your phone anyway. If you are used to tapping your cards, then it will be easier to tap your phone as well.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bpicolo 10y ago
  Credit card with a temporary battery life just doesn't cut it for me. Also, I bring my credit card in my running shorts pockets when running. Phone doesn't even come close to fitting, and even if it did would awkwardly flap around
  - iamshs 10y ago
    I held same opinion as you, but then Apple Pay rolled out in Canada and I did a complete 180 after using it. It gives you freedom, as you never leave your home without your phone even while running.
    - cynix 10y ago
      > you never leave your home without your phone even while running. He literally just said he does leave his home without his phone while running.
      - hboon 10y ago
        Part of the pitch is it will also work with an Apple Watch, if the consumer has one, and will likely wear it while running.
        cynix 10y ago
        Doesn't the Apple Watch require the paired iPhone to be nearby in order to function?
iamshs 10y ago
Banks just want to create a cartel and oligopoly:- http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1197444/fromItemId/278039/display/application http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1197... Canada also has large penetration of contactless payments, as does UK and Europe. Australia is not unique in this sense. Every major Canadian bank has rolled out Apple Pay. Australia lacks in this area massively with every bank rolling out a shitty app.
- muro 10y ago
  Don't know about other banks, but the Commonwealth Bank app is nice.
cletus 10y ago
I'm Australian but I live in the US now. I go back fairly often. Last year I tried out PayPass for the first time. Contactless payments as implemented in Australia is (IMHO) a disaster. Here are the problems: - No opt out. You couldn't get an ATM card without it. This led to various guides on drilling a hole in the RF antenna to disable it. Last I heard the ACCC was intervening to force the big banks to give consumers an opt out. Not sure if this has happened yet. - Report your card stolen and the thief can still keep using PayPass. Why is this even possible in the modern age of the Internet? - The burden of proof on unauthorized transactions is on the consumer. I seem to recall reading something from the T&Cs that claimed you could be charged a fee for a "false" (ie denied) claim and you could only claim unauthorized transactions once or twice a year. - In the case of disputed transactions the merchant is on the hook for it leading some to not accept it. Basically contactless payments in Australia are an effort by the big banks to not be responsible for fraud. There's no real benefit to consumers.
- sjwright 10y ago
  > Report your card stolen and the thief can still keep using PayPass. That's the bank's problem, not yours. > The burden of proof on unauthorized transactions is on the consumer. Same as with chip + pin.
- cynix 10y ago
  > The burden of proof on unauthorized transactions is on the consumer. The burden of proof for unauthorised transactions is _never_ on the consumer. > In the case of disputed transactions the merchant is on the hook It is always the merchant who's on the hook for disputed transactions. The banks/issuer is _never_ on the hook. Contactless payment is literally just a more convenient version of magnetic/chip payment, with everything else being the same.
  - rjvs 10y ago
    > The burden of proof for unauthorised transactions is _never_ on the consumer. It's true that the merchant has to prove that the consumer made the purchase. However, the burden is still on the consumer, since they still have to service the transaction until the dispute process is resolved.
abalone 10y ago
It's a huge improvement in security. You mentioned how the majority of contactless payments don't require a PIN. Apple Pay secures 100% of transactions with a PIN, made convenient with touch ID. There are also behind-the-scenes protections against identity theft. E.g. if a merchant has a data breach, your Apple Pay card number can't be used to buy things online.
- eon1 10y ago
  Average Joe will pick convenience over security every time, unless it's such an absolute shambles that they actually fear (or have been convinced they should fear) using it. Not to mention the already-formed habit/association of "hey, I'm paying for this, better whip out my card".
  - abalone 10y ago
    True, but Apple Pay is also at least as or more convenient than tapping a card. You (theoretically) don't ever have to enter PINs, you get a transaction confirmation on your own device, and if you have an Apple Watch you don't even have to pull anything out of your pocket.
    - vilmosi 10y ago
      >>> You (theoretically) don't ever have to enter PINs, But practically, for day to day expenses, it's not required. >>> you get a transaction confirmation on your own device As opposed to getting a confirmation on the terminal... >>> and if you have an Apple Watch you don't even have to pull anything out of your pocket I don't know if you're talking from experience, but those terminals are usually facing up and/or towards you. It's uncomfortable to bend your wrist like that.
    - dpark 10y ago
      > if you have an Apple Watch you don't even have to pull anything out of your pocket How is this PIN/touch ID protected, then?
      - 10y ago
jedharris 10y ago
I don't see your point. If the Oz banks are way ahead, why do they need to form a cartel? Your argument implies that Apple will fail to displace them. Maybe so. But then they are being silly acting threatened... None of the banks need to sign up at all. No existing customers need to use Apple Pay. All this is entirely opt in. So why any fuss at all? Hmmm...
- rodgerd 10y ago
  > All this is entirely opt in. So why any fuss at all? That has been the banks' position. Then Apple started asking politicians to force the banks to do business with Apple (on Apple's terms, of course). This is a counter-punch: we'll open up, but only if you do.
- asdfaoeu 10y ago
  The banks want to offer contactless payments on iPhones which they already do on Android.
- MaysonL 10y ago
  The question is, I suppose, how many Apple customers will leave the cartel banks and change to ANZ Banking Group or any other banks which are supporting Apple Pay.

Alphasite_ 10y ago

Honestly it's he same in most places but it's still convenient not to have to worry about your wallet.

sjwright 10y ago
It really isn't the same. A May 2015 survey by RF Intelligence Group, called ‘Global Payments Evaluation Study’, based on 32,000 respondents in 16 countries found that 66 per cent of Australians are aware that they own a contactless payment card and 53 per cent have made a contactless transaction. By contrast, just 14 per cent of Americans own a contactless card and only 9 per cent have used one for a payment. http://www.bpaybanter.com.au/news-views/why-do-australians-lead-the-way-in-contactless-pay http://www.bpaybanter.com.au/news-views/why-do-australians-l...
- dalore 10y ago
  Australia had EFTPOS which was a way of using your debit card to buy stuff, way before the VISA network really took off.
- Alphasite_ 10y ago
  I don't live in the US, I mean in most developed economies contactless is fairly common place.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Well, take Germany. Every store supports contactless, but MasterCard refuses to offer EC Cards with contactless, and wants to move customers to credit cards (which earn them far more profit – over 20 times the transaction fee). Oh, and we don’t get Android Pay either. As a result, the experience is horrible. And for every single bit US corporations are to blame.
eon1 10y ago
Really? I had a discussion with an American about this a while ago and they seemed stunned at how easy and efficient tap'n'go sounded compared to what they had available. I mean, we're fairly behind in most things here, but if you tried to pay for groceries with a cheque, in 99.9% of places you would be (rightly) laughed out of the store.
- flukus 10y ago
  From what I understand (which could well be wrong), it's not uncommon for Americans to get literal pay cheques either. Here we've had direct bank transfers for my entire adult life (15+ years).
  - 6nf 10y ago
    I'm 37 in Australia and I've literally never had a chequebook in my life. I think one time I used a bank cheque for a real estate transaction but that was a decade ago.
- nly 10y ago
  In the States its not uncommon to just have your card swiped in grocery stores and not even have to sign. Effectively they've just made the old insecure magstripe & sig system more convenient (and insecure).
sjwright 10y ago
I still have to worry about my wallet because I need my driver license, I need an amount of cash, and I need my corporate swipe card. I would also need my physical credit cards for accessing ATMs and the small minority of merchants that don't have a contactless terminal. (A few places still only have chip+pin; one of my favourite coffee shops is cash only business.) My wallet is very slim; it would be more hassle having to think about whether I needed it or not, than to just have it on me at all times.
- iamshs 10y ago
  As someone coming from Canada to Australia, and who held the same viewpoint; you just need to experience Apply Pay. Ozland seriously sucks now when compared to Canada for me regarding NFC payments. Idiots are trying to create a cartel here.
  - sjwright 10y ago
    I've used and experienced Apple Pay. It's certainly convenient. Don't see how it's more convenient than tapping my credit card, an object I would still be carrying even if I had Apple Pay.
  - eon1 10y ago
    I'm genuinely curious; what is The Apple Pay Experience? What sucks so bad about our current setup? What is so hugely different about tapping your phone instead of a card that it could possibly convince me to go through 3-4 extra steps? I really don't get it.
    - pilif 10y ago
      For me, Apple Pay has two advantages over a contactless card: - it's only active after explicit user interaction. There is no way for somebody with an rogue device to steal money from me. - conversely, there's no limit after which a transaction requires pin entry. Here in Switzerland, the limit for contactless cards is CHF 50 after which you have to still type in your pin. With Apple Pay, there is no limit. Both of these make Apple Pay very valuable to me. There's one more thing: I also have a contactless debit card (which I would love to be available on Apple Pay, but that's probably never going to happen) and the moment a reader detects more than one card, it refuses contacless operation. By having the credit card on the watch, they are separated far enough from each other, so I can always pay contactless. This is a problem that would be fixable with better UX on the readers.

yalogin 10y ago

The sales pitch for Apple pay is exactly that, you don't have to carry your cards since you will be carrying your phone anyway. If you are used to tapping your cards, then it will be easier to tap your phone as well.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bpicolo 10y ago
Credit card with a temporary battery life just doesn't cut it for me. Also, I bring my credit card in my running shorts pockets when running. Phone doesn't even come close to fitting, and even if it did would awkwardly flap around
- iamshs 10y ago
  I held same opinion as you, but then Apple Pay rolled out in Canada and I did a complete 180 after using it. It gives you freedom, as you never leave your home without your phone even while running.
  - cynix 10y ago
    > you never leave your home without your phone even while running. He literally just said he does leave his home without his phone while running.
    - hboon 10y ago
      Part of the pitch is it will also work with an Apple Watch, if the consumer has one, and will likely wear it while running.
      - cynix 10y ago
        Doesn't the Apple Watch require the paired iPhone to be nearby in order to function?

iamshs 10y ago

Banks just want to create a cartel and oligopoly:- http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1197444/fromItemId/278039/display/application http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1197... Canada also has large penetration of contactless payments, as does UK and Europe. Australia is not unique in this sense. Every major Canadian bank has rolled out Apple Pay. Australia lacks in this area massively with every bank rolling out a shitty app.

muro 10y ago
Don't know about other banks, but the Commonwealth Bank app is nice.

cletus 10y ago

I'm Australian but I live in the US now. I go back fairly often. Last year I tried out PayPass for the first time. Contactless payments as implemented in Australia is (IMHO) a disaster. Here are the problems: - No opt out. You couldn't get an ATM card without it. This led to various guides on drilling a hole in the RF antenna to disable it. Last I heard the ACCC was intervening to force the big banks to give consumers an opt out. Not sure if this has happened yet. - Report your card stolen and the thief can still keep using PayPass. Why is this even possible in the modern age of the Internet? - The burden of proof on unauthorized transactions is on the consumer. I seem to recall reading something from the T&Cs that claimed you could be charged a fee for a "false" (ie denied) claim and you could only claim unauthorized transactions once or twice a year. - In the case of disputed transactions the merchant is on the hook for it leading some to not accept it. Basically contactless payments in Australia are an effort by the big banks to not be responsible for fraud. There's no real benefit to consumers.

sjwright 10y ago
> Report your card stolen and the thief can still keep using PayPass. That's the bank's problem, not yours. > The burden of proof on unauthorized transactions is on the consumer. Same as with chip + pin.
cynix 10y ago
> The burden of proof on unauthorized transactions is on the consumer. The burden of proof for unauthorised transactions is _never_ on the consumer. > In the case of disputed transactions the merchant is on the hook It is always the merchant who's on the hook for disputed transactions. The banks/issuer is _never_ on the hook. Contactless payment is literally just a more convenient version of magnetic/chip payment, with everything else being the same.
- rjvs 10y ago
  > The burden of proof for unauthorised transactions is _never_ on the consumer. It's true that the merchant has to prove that the consumer made the purchase. However, the burden is still on the consumer, since they still have to service the transaction until the dispute process is resolved.

abalone 10y ago

It's a huge improvement in security. You mentioned how the majority of contactless payments don't require a PIN. Apple Pay secures 100% of transactions with a PIN, made convenient with touch ID. There are also behind-the-scenes protections against identity theft. E.g. if a merchant has a data breach, your Apple Pay card number can't be used to buy things online.

eon1 10y ago
Average Joe will pick convenience over security every time, unless it's such an absolute shambles that they actually fear (or have been convinced they should fear) using it. Not to mention the already-formed habit/association of "hey, I'm paying for this, better whip out my card".
- abalone 10y ago
  True, but Apple Pay is also at least as or more convenient than tapping a card. You (theoretically) don't ever have to enter PINs, you get a transaction confirmation on your own device, and if you have an Apple Watch you don't even have to pull anything out of your pocket.
  - vilmosi 10y ago
    >>> You (theoretically) don't ever have to enter PINs, But practically, for day to day expenses, it's not required. >>> you get a transaction confirmation on your own device As opposed to getting a confirmation on the terminal... >>> and if you have an Apple Watch you don't even have to pull anything out of your pocket I don't know if you're talking from experience, but those terminals are usually facing up and/or towards you. It's uncomfortable to bend your wrist like that.
  - dpark 10y ago
    > if you have an Apple Watch you don't even have to pull anything out of your pocket How is this PIN/touch ID protected, then?
    - 10y ago

jedharris 10y ago

I don't see your point. If the Oz banks are way ahead, why do they need to form a cartel? Your argument implies that Apple will fail to displace them. Maybe so. But then they are being silly acting threatened... None of the banks need to sign up at all. No existing customers need to use Apple Pay. All this is entirely opt in. So why any fuss at all? Hmmm...

rodgerd 10y ago
> All this is entirely opt in. So why any fuss at all? That has been the banks' position. Then Apple started asking politicians to force the banks to do business with Apple (on Apple's terms, of course). This is a counter-punch: we'll open up, but only if you do.
asdfaoeu 10y ago
The banks want to offer contactless payments on iPhones which they already do on Android.
MaysonL 10y ago
The question is, I suppose, how many Apple customers will leave the cartel banks and change to ANZ Banking Group or any other banks which are supporting Apple Pay.