7 ms·

Unlikely. Those people don't have the luxury of time needed to put any serious efforts towards their education.

inputcoffee 10y ago
That's a very good point. I suppose they would spend most of their time looking for work or a way to make a living. There might be a thin slice of people, just below the wealthy but above the desperately poor who just need the opportunity.
ben_jones 10y ago
Anthropologically speaking their was a lot of free time in ancient agrarian societies. I wouldn't be surprised if their is in fact a fair chunk of time that could be diverted to education if the resources were both available and accessible. From a study of modern Asian and Pacific "free time" [1]: "People in Cambodia (note the caveat of age – the sample is of those 5 years and older) and Pakistan have the largest amounts of free time (Figure 1.4). Cambodians have more than 16 hours of free time per day (1 000 minutes), whereas in Mongolia, which is the country where people work the longest, people have only 13 hours (800 minutes) of free time. Generally speaking, men have slightly more free time than women (Figure 1.5), reflecting longer total working time for women (Figure 1.1)."[2] [1]: "Free time" is defined as time not spent working, and can be subdivided as "personal care time" and "leisure time". Furthermore, personal care includes time spent sleeping and accounts for > 3/5 of "free time" usage in most cases. [2]: https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/49306957.pdf https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/49306957.pdf It's a really interesting article. It leads to the corollary of "How and why do people in poorer countries spend their leisure time differently then those in wealthier ones". My personal opinion is that the differences between both demographics where narrow down over time such as "Both poor and rich spend an average of 2hrs/day on Netflix".
- winter_blue 10y ago
  > their was a lot of free time in ancient agrarian societies Isn't it disappointing that with all the automation and advanced technology we have today, people on average have less free time? I changed jobs recently, and at my new company, my team consistently works from 9 am to around 7pm. I feel pressured to stay as I don't want to be the only one walking out the door at 5:15pm (and since that'd be frowned upon). My commute is one hour each way, so I'm not free from 8am to 8pm. I really wish I had more free time for intellectual pursuits and personal projects. :(
  - tezzer 10y ago
    An expectation of 10 hour days? Ridiculous. You might be the only one walking out at 5:15 the first few days, but you might get followers, and improve the culture at your workplace in the process. If you're meeting your tasks and deliverables, your hours as a butt in a seat shouldn't matter. Alternatively, start working from home 2 days a week. Approach your boss with the idea you're more productive without the commute time sucking up 1/4 of your workday
    - hueving 10y ago
      >If you're meeting your tasks and deliverables, your hours as a butt in a seat shouldn't matter. Alas, there are many companies where that's directly against the culture of 'shared torture'. If you're not killing yourself like everyone else, "you don't believe in the dream and you're only a clock puncher".
      - goldenkey 10y ago
        Just have a spine and leave at the normal time. What happens, happens. Its insidiously nerdy and meek to be in an office full of people who are all afraid of the "usual time to leave"
  - sotojuan 10y ago
    Serious question: Why did you take the job? Assuming it wasn't your only choice or you had to get a job ASAP and took the first one (if so, ignore the rest), why? I've made the same mistake before: Working at a place where everyone works late or at home after work, or even on weekends. Not for me—I make sure to ask during interviews about working hours and expectations.
    - ben_jones 10y ago
      Not winter_blue but I imagine it sneaks up on people. I think when you enter an office (and sign the offer sheet) you're in a honey moon stage and tend to see only the benefits you are now receiving with a certain position. Then over time you see the worst parts of people creep out and as managers etc. get a better understanding of your thresholds they will push you accordingly.
- aleksei 10y ago
  Would this study hold for ancient societies thought? There is very, very little we know of pre-historic societies. Early farmers did not have pesticides, or advanced machinery. They were working with crops only recently domesticated, and with little knowledge of best practises. There was no social order, so bands of thieves may have been more common. This would suggest that much time would have been spent weeding and protecting crops from pests and thieves, although there can be only speculation on this part. However, I would be cautious of accepting that ancient societies had it as good as the people in the study. Once societies formed it probably got worse, eg. the life of a farmer in ancient Egypt.
benbreen 10y ago
You'd be surprised. A good friend of mine is an Afghan who grew up sleeping on a dirt floor alongside his 5 siblings. When he was 15, his parents sent him off to their family village in order to fight the Taliban. I first met him at our PhD program orientation in the US. He speaks four languages and and is one of the most well educated people I've ever met. Granted, he's an exceptional person but by no means of a unique one. Edit: can't help sharing something that just happened last week, I was with my wife in Athens, where she had just started her thesis research, interviewing Afghan refugees in one of the big Greek refugee camps. She befriends a 17 year old Afghan kid named Javad, no family or money, speaks nothing but Dari, and one of the first things he asks her is "can you send me a PDF of an intermediate to advanced level mechanical engineering textbook?" We're planning on sending him an ipad with a bunch of PDFs and sci hub articles. I realize these are just two personal anecdotes but they have definitely changed my mind on this subject. Curious people tend to be curious regardless of their life circumstances.
- Myrmornis 10y ago
  That's an awesome story. How was Javad planning to receive / read the PDF? Or did he want a paper copy?
  - benbreen 10y ago
    His cell phone. He buys data 5 euro at a time from a shop in the town or goes to cafes to download English and engineering textbooks. That's what my wife's thesis project is about - specifically figuring out the best ways to share useful information with refugees who have cell phones but not much else, especially women who might not have a chance to go out in public much, or have a formal education. It's not my field at all but I find her work to be fascinating. If you're interested, This American Life just did two whole episodes from a Greek refugee camp. In the second episode they interview a guy who patched into a power line under a tree to charge 6 cell phones at once! The group that both TAL and my wife were talking to is really doing good work, they're called the Greek Forum of Refugees. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/592/are-we-there-yet http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/592/a...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mikerichards 10y ago
How tired are you after a days of works. Many of us are mentally drained, which we feel as physically drained after work. Not only that, but physical activity plus our mental strain screws with our cortisol levels. Personally, I used to work out a lot. Then I realized I was getting crabby all the time. I think I have cortisol problems, but not sure. Anybody refer me to research with stress and and physical workouts and not getting enough sleep?
shas3 10y ago
Severe sampling bias. News in the West is focused on all the bad things that happen there. That doesn't mean that there can't be a small percentage of the population that has the time and motivation to educate themselves. I've met my share of Syrians, Libyans, and Iraqi graduate students who were educated in and lived through pretty difficult times pre- and post- dictator-overthrow.
- mavhc 10y ago
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36893303 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36893303 Secret library in Syria

That's a very good point. I suppose they would spend most of their time looking for work or a way to make a living. There might be a thin slice of people, just below the wealthy but above the desperately poor who just need the opportunity.

ben_jones 10y ago

Anthropologically speaking their was a lot of free time in ancient agrarian societies. I wouldn't be surprised if their is in fact a fair chunk of time that could be diverted to education if the resources were both available and accessible. From a study of modern Asian and Pacific "free time" [1]: "People in Cambodia (note the caveat of age – the sample is of those 5 years and older) and Pakistan have the largest amounts of free time (Figure 1.4). Cambodians have more than 16 hours of free time per day (1 000 minutes), whereas in Mongolia, which is the country where people work the longest, people have only 13 hours (800 minutes) of free time. Generally speaking, men have slightly more free time than women (Figure 1.5), reflecting longer total working time for women (Figure 1.1)."[2] [1]: "Free time" is defined as time not spent working, and can be subdivided as "personal care time" and "leisure time". Furthermore, personal care includes time spent sleeping and accounts for > 3/5 of "free time" usage in most cases. [2]: https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/49306957.pdf https://www.oecd.org/els/soc/49306957.pdf It's a really interesting article. It leads to the corollary of "How and why do people in poorer countries spend their leisure time differently then those in wealthier ones". My personal opinion is that the differences between both demographics where narrow down over time such as "Both poor and rich spend an average of 2hrs/day on Netflix".

winter_blue 10y ago
> their was a lot of free time in ancient agrarian societies Isn't it disappointing that with all the automation and advanced technology we have today, people on average have less free time? I changed jobs recently, and at my new company, my team consistently works from 9 am to around 7pm. I feel pressured to stay as I don't want to be the only one walking out the door at 5:15pm (and since that'd be frowned upon). My commute is one hour each way, so I'm not free from 8am to 8pm. I really wish I had more free time for intellectual pursuits and personal projects. :(
- tezzer 10y ago
  An expectation of 10 hour days? Ridiculous. You might be the only one walking out at 5:15 the first few days, but you might get followers, and improve the culture at your workplace in the process. If you're meeting your tasks and deliverables, your hours as a butt in a seat shouldn't matter. Alternatively, start working from home 2 days a week. Approach your boss with the idea you're more productive without the commute time sucking up 1/4 of your workday
  - hueving 10y ago
    >If you're meeting your tasks and deliverables, your hours as a butt in a seat shouldn't matter. Alas, there are many companies where that's directly against the culture of 'shared torture'. If you're not killing yourself like everyone else, "you don't believe in the dream and you're only a clock puncher".
    - goldenkey 10y ago
      Just have a spine and leave at the normal time. What happens, happens. Its insidiously nerdy and meek to be in an office full of people who are all afraid of the "usual time to leave"
- sotojuan 10y ago
  Serious question: Why did you take the job? Assuming it wasn't your only choice or you had to get a job ASAP and took the first one (if so, ignore the rest), why? I've made the same mistake before: Working at a place where everyone works late or at home after work, or even on weekends. Not for me—I make sure to ask during interviews about working hours and expectations.
  - ben_jones 10y ago
    Not winter_blue but I imagine it sneaks up on people. I think when you enter an office (and sign the offer sheet) you're in a honey moon stage and tend to see only the benefits you are now receiving with a certain position. Then over time you see the worst parts of people creep out and as managers etc. get a better understanding of your thresholds they will push you accordingly.
aleksei 10y ago
Would this study hold for ancient societies thought? There is very, very little we know of pre-historic societies. Early farmers did not have pesticides, or advanced machinery. They were working with crops only recently domesticated, and with little knowledge of best practises. There was no social order, so bands of thieves may have been more common. This would suggest that much time would have been spent weeding and protecting crops from pests and thieves, although there can be only speculation on this part. However, I would be cautious of accepting that ancient societies had it as good as the people in the study. Once societies formed it probably got worse, eg. the life of a farmer in ancient Egypt.

benbreen 10y ago

You'd be surprised. A good friend of mine is an Afghan who grew up sleeping on a dirt floor alongside his 5 siblings. When he was 15, his parents sent him off to their family village in order to fight the Taliban. I first met him at our PhD program orientation in the US. He speaks four languages and and is one of the most well educated people I've ever met. Granted, he's an exceptional person but by no means of a unique one. Edit: can't help sharing something that just happened last week, I was with my wife in Athens, where she had just started her thesis research, interviewing Afghan refugees in one of the big Greek refugee camps. She befriends a 17 year old Afghan kid named Javad, no family or money, speaks nothing but Dari, and one of the first things he asks her is "can you send me a PDF of an intermediate to advanced level mechanical engineering textbook?" We're planning on sending him an ipad with a bunch of PDFs and sci hub articles. I realize these are just two personal anecdotes but they have definitely changed my mind on this subject. Curious people tend to be curious regardless of their life circumstances.

Myrmornis 10y ago
That's an awesome story. How was Javad planning to receive / read the PDF? Or did he want a paper copy?
- benbreen 10y ago
  His cell phone. He buys data 5 euro at a time from a shop in the town or goes to cafes to download English and engineering textbooks. That's what my wife's thesis project is about - specifically figuring out the best ways to share useful information with refugees who have cell phones but not much else, especially women who might not have a chance to go out in public much, or have a formal education. It's not my field at all but I find her work to be fascinating. If you're interested, This American Life just did two whole episodes from a Greek refugee camp. In the second episode they interview a guy who patched into a power line under a tree to charge 6 cell phones at once! The group that both TAL and my wife were talking to is really doing good work, they're called the Greek Forum of Refugees. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/592/are-we-there-yet http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/592/a...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mikerichards 10y ago

How tired are you after a days of works. Many of us are mentally drained, which we feel as physically drained after work. Not only that, but physical activity plus our mental strain screws with our cortisol levels. Personally, I used to work out a lot. Then I realized I was getting crabby all the time. I think I have cortisol problems, but not sure. Anybody refer me to research with stress and and physical workouts and not getting enough sleep?

shas3 10y ago

Severe sampling bias. News in the West is focused on all the bad things that happen there. That doesn't mean that there can't be a small percentage of the population that has the time and motivation to educate themselves. I've met my share of Syrians, Libyans, and Iraqi graduate students who were educated in and lived through pretty difficult times pre- and post- dictator-overthrow.

mavhc 10y ago
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36893303 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36893303 Secret library in Syria