11 ms·

Here's what Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer said that really made me angry

33 points by Hansi 10y ago

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
Zero attempt to find data to prove or nullify his hypothesis. Curious how the data from co-working spaces pan out...
- outworlder 10y ago
  Isn't this inverting the burden of proof here? She made the extraordinary claim that she didn't even need to know who or what people were working on, just that they were there on weekends. She provided zero data. It's just as likely that the weekend working startups are the one that will fail. Obviously by burning out, but also by losing sight of the big picture. This seems stereotypical of hackers coding the latest greatest features with zero customers. They could be seriously misusing their available time. Companies (startups or not) should be able to set their own pace. People should learn to use their time well and save their energy for when they absolutely need to burn the midnight oil. Besides, getting burned out or sick doesn't help anyone.
  - justin_vanw 10y ago
    If you want to go 'slow and steady' and have great 'work/life balance' (and work with a lot of mediocre people and play a lot of political games..) go get a job at a big company. Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep.
    - outworlder 10y ago
      > Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep. Who's saying anything about playing it safe? It's all about strategically using your resources, not squandering them. Be it time, money or sleep. It's about engaging your afterburners when you actually need them, not when you are flying in circles.
      - justin_vanw 10y ago
        So what do you do when people work until 11pm every night and keep showing up on Saturday? Tell them to go home? There are teams where people are having more fun 'kicking ass' and getting things done, and have a great time with the people they are there doing it with, and frankly they would laugh you out of the building (literally) if you even for one second referred to them as 'resources'. I have seen people wander into the office on the weekend just because they were bored (including myself), or were looking to hang out and hack on some stuff. It's not something that burns you out, it's a passion for some people. The good people. I think you have had a very limited (and limiting) work experience, to be honest.
        exclusiv 10y ago
        You're assuming the parent advocates discouraging passionate team members which isn't fair. "Resources" and "resourcing" are pretty standard terms esp. in the agency space and with companies using contractors as an example. Not sure why you take so much offense. Perhaps you are referring to co-founders or equity owners that would laugh one out of the building? The notion that everyone has to grind on weekends to build something successful is ridiculous. Mayer is right about hard work. But she's simplistically equating "time logged" with "hard work". What's success in this conversation? I'd be willing to bet most the startups that go to her husband's co-working space will fail. That's based on data and more accurate of a statement than hers.
        justin_vanw 10y ago
        I'm not sure whether you even read my comments. It's not the weekend work that makes the difference, it's having the sort of people that show up on the weekend.
        exclusiv 10y ago
        Yes I read them all, but I'm not sure you read your own. "no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep"
ryanobjc 10y ago
The weekend work = success is hardly a new item, there was a reference to it in Microserfs... Written in 1992. The VC/money guy said he'd invest in biotechnology but staff didn't work weekends. And as soon as he finds one that did he could bet the farm and retire. As for the rest of it, same tired tropes from the author. I already knew what he was gonna say when I realized who it was. As.for Marissa... She's kinda right. And every current Googler is thankful they can reap the rewards.
rezashirazian 10y ago
I kinda get what she is saying. It takes a certain amount of passion and dedication for someone to show up on weekends. They must truly believe in the company or the idea to put in that type of effort. This dedication and passion will also reflect itself in the product. Many people can make a mediocre product by putting in the minimum amount required, but for something outstanding it usually takes more. Much more. What she has said is nothing outlandish.
- exclusiv 10y ago
  She advocates working nearly 20 hours a day and her track record doesn't seem to line up with her mantra. I think that might be causing some issues with some people. You can probably do a bunch of high-level stuff like she's been doing, but you simply can't program that many hours, do customer service, marketing and more effectively without a sane schedule and no PEDs. Most people will burn out, esp. if they are pre-revenue and/or investors are breathing down their necks. It's definitely a little arrogant. She says she can predict without knowing what they do. Also, Bill Gross and others with more experience across a wide variety of successful startups believe timing is the most important factor to predict success. [1] However I do agree that some companies may win due to working excessively if they're in highly competitive spaces and VC funding is required. That extra effort can relate to timing which relates to funding and eventually an exit. I think too often - these types like Mayer talk about building companies and startups as if VC funding and big exits are the only companies that should exist in our country and that there's only one way to do it. I agree that they get built based on hard work, but a lot of people are in on weekends and putting in crazy hours because they are overbuilding their product, not talking to users, have no hobbies, etc. [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gross_the_single_biggest_reason_why_startups_succeed http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gross_the_single_biggest_reaso...
- pawadu 10y ago
  That is just a fantasy, Reza and Marissa live in a fairy tale where working long hours equals passion. It doesn't. I have had co-workers who practically lived in the office. Every time something urgent came up they would volunteer to work the weekends and late nights. Surprisingly the same guys were also known among the developers as people who got the least amount of work done. And while the management was initially impressed with their hard work and "commitment", every single one of them was let go in the very first rounds of lay offs.
justin_vanw 10y ago
It has nothing to do with being there on Saturday. It has everything else to do with the kind of people and their ability to invest themselves in their goal, and showing up on Saturday is a great indicator of that. I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fun'. If they have some project they work on for fun, even one, that isn't for a class at school or for their job, then they are very very likely to be a great hire. If they don't they are very very unlikely to be a good hire. Side projects don't magically make you smart and capable and good at problem solving and getting things done, but it sure seems to be fundamentally related. And from personal experience, I've worked for 2 startups, one where people worked all weekend and one where they didn't, and interestingly they were doing almost the exact same thing. One had an $80MM exit, the other just slowly went away. Small sample size, for sure.
- rahimnathwani 10y ago
  How do you know? I mean, how do you test for false negatives in the hiring process? Perhaps you're rejecting lots of people without side projects, but they go on to be successful anyway?
  - EduardoBautista 10y ago
    You can never truly get rid of false negatives efficiently. However, false negatives are orders of magnitude better than false positives. So just try to minimize false positives and try not to lose sleep on the false negatives.
    - exclusiv 10y ago
      Agreed. It's especially important for smaller companies where each hire has a big impact. You're trying to minimize risk and have a good to great hire (technically and culturally), not hire the absolute best.
  - justin_vanw 10y ago
jagtesh 10y ago
Slightly off-topic, how did this get picked by Yahoo? Do they get enough editorial freedom to publish something that doesn't favour their CEO? I'm pleasantly surprised for one. Could this also mean the editorial team believes this to be true?
- NEDM64 10y ago
  It's CNBC content.
cmurf 10y ago
$117 million over 5 years; $36.6 million for first six months. But that was a 1 cent comment.
knavely 10y ago
Common misconception. Direction is more important than speed. If you are running in the wrong direction it doesn't matter how fast, or if you come in on the weekend. If you are headed in the rigt direction then speed and velocity can be important. It's easy to want to believe that success is repeatable and due to an observable formula...
pawadu 10y ago
Honest questions: all the hard working Yahoo employees who worked many many hours overtime under her instead of being with family and friends, what did they get out of this in the end? Marissa was paid big $, I understand she needed to work hard for that money but everyone else, what reason did they have 20 hour days?
ralphc 10y ago
I wonder what the actual work she did at Google that would make you work up to 130 hours a week, or at the least pull one all nighter a week. Was it heads down programming? I don't think anyone can maintain a great level of code for long at that level. Manager stuff? Maybe. Infrastructure, did she supervise or help set up servers? Startups don't have to do that anymore, at least in the beginning, just spin up servers at AWS. Like the blog author says, a lot of things that needed to be done in house back in the day can be done remotely now.
ralphc 10y ago
Wherever company she lands at, run. Not only does she have this attitude at rest, she's going to have a chip on her shoulder to prove she's not a failure at whatever venture she winds up at next.
triplesec 10y ago
Her attitude comes from the privileged ideal of hard work = success, which stems from the classic attribution error: "I'm successful therefore it must be because I'm better than everyone else in x y or z ways", and often one of those factors is a belief in one's own hard work pay9ing off. Which blithely ignores all the less fortunate people working even harder at three jobs to pay tthe bills.

33 points by Hansi 10y ago

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

Zero attempt to find data to prove or nullify his hypothesis. Curious how the data from co-working spaces pan out...

outworlder 10y ago
Isn't this inverting the burden of proof here? She made the extraordinary claim that she didn't even need to know who or what people were working on, just that they were there on weekends. She provided zero data. It's just as likely that the weekend working startups are the one that will fail. Obviously by burning out, but also by losing sight of the big picture. This seems stereotypical of hackers coding the latest greatest features with zero customers. They could be seriously misusing their available time. Companies (startups or not) should be able to set their own pace. People should learn to use their time well and save their energy for when they absolutely need to burn the midnight oil. Besides, getting burned out or sick doesn't help anyone.
- justin_vanw 10y ago
  If you want to go 'slow and steady' and have great 'work/life balance' (and work with a lot of mediocre people and play a lot of political games..) go get a job at a big company. Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep.
  - outworlder 10y ago
    > Startups are not for that mentality, no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep. Who's saying anything about playing it safe? It's all about strategically using your resources, not squandering them. Be it time, money or sleep. It's about engaging your afterburners when you actually need them, not when you are flying in circles.
    - justin_vanw 10y ago
      So what do you do when people work until 11pm every night and keep showing up on Saturday? Tell them to go home? There are teams where people are having more fun 'kicking ass' and getting things done, and have a great time with the people they are there doing it with, and frankly they would laugh you out of the building (literally) if you even for one second referred to them as 'resources'. I have seen people wander into the office on the weekend just because they were bored (including myself), or were looking to hang out and hack on some stuff. It's not something that burns you out, it's a passion for some people. The good people. I think you have had a very limited (and limiting) work experience, to be honest.
      - exclusiv 10y ago
        You're assuming the parent advocates discouraging passionate team members which isn't fair. "Resources" and "resourcing" are pretty standard terms esp. in the agency space and with companies using contractors as an example. Not sure why you take so much offense. Perhaps you are referring to co-founders or equity owners that would laugh one out of the building? The notion that everyone has to grind on weekends to build something successful is ridiculous. Mayer is right about hard work. But she's simplistically equating "time logged" with "hard work". What's success in this conversation? I'd be willing to bet most the startups that go to her husband's co-working space will fail. That's based on data and more accurate of a statement than hers.
        justin_vanw 10y ago
        I'm not sure whether you even read my comments. It's not the weekend work that makes the difference, it's having the sort of people that show up on the weekend.
        exclusiv 10y ago
        Yes I read them all, but I'm not sure you read your own. "no startup has ever won by playing it safe and making sure people get plenty of sleep"

ryanobjc 10y ago

The weekend work = success is hardly a new item, there was a reference to it in Microserfs... Written in 1992. The VC/money guy said he'd invest in biotechnology but staff didn't work weekends. And as soon as he finds one that did he could bet the farm and retire. As for the rest of it, same tired tropes from the author. I already knew what he was gonna say when I realized who it was. As.for Marissa... She's kinda right. And every current Googler is thankful they can reap the rewards.

rezashirazian 10y ago

I kinda get what she is saying. It takes a certain amount of passion and dedication for someone to show up on weekends. They must truly believe in the company or the idea to put in that type of effort. This dedication and passion will also reflect itself in the product. Many people can make a mediocre product by putting in the minimum amount required, but for something outstanding it usually takes more. Much more. What she has said is nothing outlandish.

exclusiv 10y ago
She advocates working nearly 20 hours a day and her track record doesn't seem to line up with her mantra. I think that might be causing some issues with some people. You can probably do a bunch of high-level stuff like she's been doing, but you simply can't program that many hours, do customer service, marketing and more effectively without a sane schedule and no PEDs. Most people will burn out, esp. if they are pre-revenue and/or investors are breathing down their necks. It's definitely a little arrogant. She says she can predict without knowing what they do. Also, Bill Gross and others with more experience across a wide variety of successful startups believe timing is the most important factor to predict success. [1] However I do agree that some companies may win due to working excessively if they're in highly competitive spaces and VC funding is required. That extra effort can relate to timing which relates to funding and eventually an exit. I think too often - these types like Mayer talk about building companies and startups as if VC funding and big exits are the only companies that should exist in our country and that there's only one way to do it. I agree that they get built based on hard work, but a lot of people are in on weekends and putting in crazy hours because they are overbuilding their product, not talking to users, have no hobbies, etc. [1] http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gross_the_single_biggest_reason_why_startups_succeed http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gross_the_single_biggest_reaso...
pawadu 10y ago
That is just a fantasy, Reza and Marissa live in a fairy tale where working long hours equals passion. It doesn't. I have had co-workers who practically lived in the office. Every time something urgent came up they would volunteer to work the weekends and late nights. Surprisingly the same guys were also known among the developers as people who got the least amount of work done. And while the management was initially impressed with their hard work and "commitment", every single one of them was let go in the very first rounds of lay offs.

justin_vanw 10y ago

It has nothing to do with being there on Saturday. It has everything else to do with the kind of people and their ability to invest themselves in their goal, and showing up on Saturday is a great indicator of that. I interview a lot of programmers, and I can tell you with about 95% precision whether they will work out and be great based on the single question 'tell me about the programming projects you work on for fun'. If they have some project they work on for fun, even one, that isn't for a class at school or for their job, then they are very very likely to be a great hire. If they don't they are very very unlikely to be a good hire. Side projects don't magically make you smart and capable and good at problem solving and getting things done, but it sure seems to be fundamentally related. And from personal experience, I've worked for 2 startups, one where people worked all weekend and one where they didn't, and interestingly they were doing almost the exact same thing. One had an $80MM exit, the other just slowly went away. Small sample size, for sure.

rahimnathwani 10y ago
How do you know? I mean, how do you test for false negatives in the hiring process? Perhaps you're rejecting lots of people without side projects, but they go on to be successful anyway?
- EduardoBautista 10y ago
  You can never truly get rid of false negatives efficiently. However, false negatives are orders of magnitude better than false positives. So just try to minimize false positives and try not to lose sleep on the false negatives.
  - exclusiv 10y ago
    Agreed. It's especially important for smaller companies where each hire has a big impact. You're trying to minimize risk and have a good to great hire (technically and culturally), not hire the absolute best.
- justin_vanw 10y ago

jagtesh 10y ago

Slightly off-topic, how did this get picked by Yahoo? Do they get enough editorial freedom to publish something that doesn't favour their CEO? I'm pleasantly surprised for one. Could this also mean the editorial team believes this to be true?

NEDM64 10y ago
It's CNBC content.

cmurf 10y ago

$117 million over 5 years; $36.6 million for first six months. But that was a 1 cent comment.

knavely 10y ago

Common misconception. Direction is more important than speed. If you are running in the wrong direction it doesn't matter how fast, or if you come in on the weekend. If you are headed in the rigt direction then speed and velocity can be important. It's easy to want to believe that success is repeatable and due to an observable formula...

pawadu 10y ago

Honest questions: all the hard working Yahoo employees who worked many many hours overtime under her instead of being with family and friends, what did they get out of this in the end? Marissa was paid big $, I understand she needed to work hard for that money but everyone else, what reason did they have 20 hour days?

ralphc 10y ago

I wonder what the actual work she did at Google that would make you work up to 130 hours a week, or at the least pull one all nighter a week. Was it heads down programming? I don't think anyone can maintain a great level of code for long at that level. Manager stuff? Maybe. Infrastructure, did she supervise or help set up servers? Startups don't have to do that anymore, at least in the beginning, just spin up servers at AWS. Like the blog author says, a lot of things that needed to be done in house back in the day can be done remotely now.

ralphc 10y ago

Wherever company she lands at, run. Not only does she have this attitude at rest, she's going to have a chip on her shoulder to prove she's not a failure at whatever venture she winds up at next.

triplesec 10y ago

Her attitude comes from the privileged ideal of hard work = success, which stems from the classic attribution error: "I'm successful therefore it must be because I'm better than everyone else in x y or z ways", and often one of those factors is a belief in one's own hard work pay9ing off. Which blithely ignores all the less fortunate people working even harder at three jobs to pay tthe bills.