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No, it's not. It is a horrible abomination. See my other post. It's like changing all math symbols to words because the computers of the time can't display t

No, it's not. It is a horrible abomination. See my other post. It's like changing all math symbols to words because the computers of the time can't display the integral sign or greek letters. A total destruction and negation of the power of notation. Iverson made a very bad decision with J. It's crap.

ktRolster 10y ago
imo using the symbols is part of the fun of APL! Apart from the utility.
pierrec 10y ago
APL symbols are slighly more suggestive than J symbols, sometimes they vaguely resemble mathematical counterparts with similar meanings, but they remain entirely separate programming symbols with their own meanings. The idea of using other, more common characters instead remains an excellent idea. Afflicting J with lovecraftian adjectives and scat doesn't help.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
Sigh, I guess you're right. It's not like their aren't massive disadvantages to the APL way of doing things, like not being able to edit your code in standard editors, and having to learn confusing new keybindings, or even get a new keyboard. OH WAIT.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  Not anymore......now that utf-8 is spreading everywhere, APL is ready for a comeback! Most editors (Eclipse, Emacs, VI, etc) can handle the characters, and most OSes can handle different keymappings, so no need to buy a new keyboard. Of course, you'll still have to learn confusing new characters.
Crito 10y ago
> "It's like changing all math symbols to words because the computers of the time can't display the integral sign or greek letters." You mean like TeX? Seems pretty fucking sensible to me.
rbanffy 10y ago
The worst part of APL (I learned it in college) was dictating programs to colleagues.
sctb 10y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12255109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12255109 and marked it off-topic. Inclusions like “It is a horrible abomination.” and “It's crap.” are not necessary or acceptable on Hacker News.
- rebootthesystem 10y ago
  Just saw this. Hey, you know, your forum, your rules. So, fine with me. No issues. However, you are getting tripped-up by language and, effectively, censoring it, which is exactly opposite our culture. And passing judgement on the necessity of language is a very subjective thing. Profanity or colorful language is able to communicate at a level that is almost impossible to match with hundreds of words. In this case the use of the word "abomination" is objectively correct and true. This coming from someone who started using APL over 30 years ago, was very much a part of the community, published APL papers, met every luminary in the language and fully understands how, when and why J came about. Few people. Very few people on HN can match this degree of depth in APL and most voice opinions about J out of ignorance of the history and genesis of this history-changing mistake. The only modern parallel I can find is what happened with Python 2.7 and 3.0. Not a perfect analogy because the incompatibilities did not kill Python. J all but assured that APL was dead. Instead of sticking with and evolving the great concepts of notation as a tool for thought Iverson managed to both give the world one of the most amazing new concepts in computational problem solving and, at the same time, years later, pretty much kill it. Yes, "abomination" fits that history. Still, your forum, your rules. Live long and prosper.

ktRolster 10y ago

imo using the symbols is part of the fun of APL! Apart from the utility.

pierrec 10y ago

APL symbols are slighly more suggestive than J symbols, sometimes they vaguely resemble mathematical counterparts with similar meanings, but they remain entirely separate programming symbols with their own meanings. The idea of using other, more common characters instead remains an excellent idea. Afflicting J with lovecraftian adjectives and scat doesn't help.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

Sigh, I guess you're right. It's not like their aren't massive disadvantages to the APL way of doing things, like not being able to edit your code in standard editors, and having to learn confusing new keybindings, or even get a new keyboard. OH WAIT.

ktRolster 10y ago
Not anymore......now that utf-8 is spreading everywhere, APL is ready for a comeback! Most editors (Eclipse, Emacs, VI, etc) can handle the characters, and most OSes can handle different keymappings, so no need to buy a new keyboard. Of course, you'll still have to learn confusing new characters.

Crito 10y ago

> "It's like changing all math symbols to words because the computers of the time can't display the integral sign or greek letters." You mean like TeX? Seems pretty fucking sensible to me.

rbanffy 10y ago

The worst part of APL (I learned it in college) was dictating programs to colleagues.

sctb 10y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12255109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12255109 and marked it off-topic. Inclusions like “It is a horrible abomination.” and “It's crap.” are not necessary or acceptable on Hacker News.

rebootthesystem 10y ago
Just saw this. Hey, you know, your forum, your rules. So, fine with me. No issues. However, you are getting tripped-up by language and, effectively, censoring it, which is exactly opposite our culture. And passing judgement on the necessity of language is a very subjective thing. Profanity or colorful language is able to communicate at a level that is almost impossible to match with hundreds of words. In this case the use of the word "abomination" is objectively correct and true. This coming from someone who started using APL over 30 years ago, was very much a part of the community, published APL papers, met every luminary in the language and fully understands how, when and why J came about. Few people. Very few people on HN can match this degree of depth in APL and most voice opinions about J out of ignorance of the history and genesis of this history-changing mistake. The only modern parallel I can find is what happened with Python 2.7 and 3.0. Not a perfect analogy because the incompatibilities did not kill Python. J all but assured that APL was dead. Instead of sticking with and evolving the great concepts of notation as a tool for thought Iverson managed to both give the world one of the most amazing new concepts in computational problem solving and, at the same time, years later, pretty much kill it. Yes, "abomination" fits that history. Still, your forum, your rules. Live long and prosper.