4 ms·

The AA model of embracing helplessness needs to die in a fire. I've never seen such a depressing pseudoreligion, denying people agency in their own lives, prom

by douche 10y ago

The AA model of embracing helplessness needs to die in a fire. I've never seen such a depressing pseudoreligion, denying people agency in their own lives, promoting a bizarre sort of monasticism (if you actually do the stepwork as fanatically as you're supposed to).

hermannj314 10y ago
I have been to AA, it was not for me for the reasons you mention, also I received thinly veiled threats when they found out I was an atheist (making it clear I was not welcome if my personal "God" wasn't literally the Christian God). However, that doesn't mean AA doesn't work for some people. I have read somewhere it has a 10% success rate, so we can't ignore that for some people, as flawed as it might seem to some, it does work.
- randomflavor 10y ago
  Anyone that talks about AA like this isnt really doing what AA is... the helplessness thing also isnt true. Powerlessness is just about "I dont have power over X" where x=other people, other circumstances, etc etc. All you have power over is your OWN actions. And thru that you gain immense power. The steps are just about clearing out the shitty character your developed lying and cheating your way to get high/drunk... So you can start making decisions without trying to cover up 100 other shitty decisions. The higher power thing is just about not being so self centered and framing the world from a point of view where the addict isnt in the center of it, but a participant equal to all others. Theres lots of crazy everywhere, and AA attracts alot of them. But people who have found true freedom outside of addictions thru the process. And many people just build new frameworks to be assholes with.
- cthalupa 10y ago
  "The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry" puts it at 5-8% How many of those are people that would have successfully quit on their own, but instead of trying to fix it themselves when they realized they had a problem, almost immediately went to AA? I don't think a 5-8% success rate is really indication on its own that AA provides any positive benefit
themartorana 10y ago
It's not pseudo-religion, it's actual religion. I can't say whether or not it works, and my stance on religion is neither here nor there, but it's why I'm so very, very against court-ordered AA. Not only is it cruel to people who are there for actual help, but it's state-sponsored religion.
- srtjstjsj 10y ago
  court-ordered AA is illegal. court-ordered rehab is not: http://www.rehabs.com/pro-talk-articles/you-cant-make-me-or-can-you-mandated-aa-attendance/ http://www.rehabs.com/pro-talk-articles/you-cant-make-me-or-...
  - themartorana 10y ago
    Hey, look at that! That's good to know. Sad that it's not followed by many (some?) courts (I personally know someone required by court to attend AA specifically, although this was at least 10 years ago).
posterboy 10y ago
It would seem to work because it's an antecedent to the religious ceremony beer is spirited with. Strong alcohol is even called spirit.
Fricken 10y ago
People talk about religion like it's been with us since the dawn of man for no good reason at all.
- mikeash 10y ago
  What do you mean by "good reason"? If you mean reasons that make sense, sure, of course there's a reasonable explanation for why religion is so prevalent throughout history. If you mean reasons that involve benefit to humans, I'm rather skeptical. There may be, but the mere fact that it's common doesn't mean that there must be. Cancer and broken bones are pretty common too.
  - Fricken 10y ago
    If only we could find a way to engineer more of the humanity out of being human. Humans would be great if they just weren't so human. I have high hopes for humankind, it's just that first we have to figure out what to do with the human part. So I agree with you. I too am skeptical being human is beneficial to being human, it's just that I'm not really sure what we'd do without it, either.
vintermann 10y ago
Although I think the disease model is wrong and destructive, there's a certain logic to AA's thinking that can't be easily dismissed. An addiction researcher put it like this: > If the consumer's sole motive for changing his level of patience is to escape an allocation that is dictated by his first order preference (including time preferences), but that contradicts his second order preferences, he will not be able to achieve this by rational means. The researcher proposed that it might be possible to escape this conundrum by seeing patience as valuable in itself. If you only value patience because you'd like to escape your addiction in the long term, you won't succeed, because you do in fact value the thing you're addicted to more in the short term. Yet, can you just choose to value patience in itself? What things you value can force you to change the things you value? Isn't it all dictated by our biology anyway, even if it isn't a disease? There are a lot of paradoxes about willpower. It may not be something you can think yourself out of, no matter how smart you are. It's not really surprising Robert Smith threw his hands up and decided he needed a miracle/supernatural help to break out of it. But maybe this is all the more reason to try to solve addiction as a social problem, not on an individual level as a problem of willpower (or disease).

by douche 10y ago

hermannj314 10y ago

I have been to AA, it was not for me for the reasons you mention, also I received thinly veiled threats when they found out I was an atheist (making it clear I was not welcome if my personal "God" wasn't literally the Christian God). However, that doesn't mean AA doesn't work for some people. I have read somewhere it has a 10% success rate, so we can't ignore that for some people, as flawed as it might seem to some, it does work.

randomflavor 10y ago
Anyone that talks about AA like this isnt really doing what AA is... the helplessness thing also isnt true. Powerlessness is just about "I dont have power over X" where x=other people, other circumstances, etc etc. All you have power over is your OWN actions. And thru that you gain immense power. The steps are just about clearing out the shitty character your developed lying and cheating your way to get high/drunk... So you can start making decisions without trying to cover up 100 other shitty decisions. The higher power thing is just about not being so self centered and framing the world from a point of view where the addict isnt in the center of it, but a participant equal to all others. Theres lots of crazy everywhere, and AA attracts alot of them. But people who have found true freedom outside of addictions thru the process. And many people just build new frameworks to be assholes with.
cthalupa 10y ago
"The Sober Truth: Debunking the Bad Science Behind 12-Step Programs and the Rehab Industry" puts it at 5-8% How many of those are people that would have successfully quit on their own, but instead of trying to fix it themselves when they realized they had a problem, almost immediately went to AA? I don't think a 5-8% success rate is really indication on its own that AA provides any positive benefit

themartorana 10y ago

It's not pseudo-religion, it's actual religion. I can't say whether or not it works, and my stance on religion is neither here nor there, but it's why I'm so very, very against court-ordered AA. Not only is it cruel to people who are there for actual help, but it's state-sponsored religion.

srtjstjsj 10y ago
court-ordered AA is illegal. court-ordered rehab is not: http://www.rehabs.com/pro-talk-articles/you-cant-make-me-or-can-you-mandated-aa-attendance/ http://www.rehabs.com/pro-talk-articles/you-cant-make-me-or-...
- themartorana 10y ago
  Hey, look at that! That's good to know. Sad that it's not followed by many (some?) courts (I personally know someone required by court to attend AA specifically, although this was at least 10 years ago).

posterboy 10y ago

It would seem to work because it's an antecedent to the religious ceremony beer is spirited with. Strong alcohol is even called spirit.

Fricken 10y ago

People talk about religion like it's been with us since the dawn of man for no good reason at all.

mikeash 10y ago
What do you mean by "good reason"? If you mean reasons that make sense, sure, of course there's a reasonable explanation for why religion is so prevalent throughout history. If you mean reasons that involve benefit to humans, I'm rather skeptical. There may be, but the mere fact that it's common doesn't mean that there must be. Cancer and broken bones are pretty common too.
- Fricken 10y ago
  If only we could find a way to engineer more of the humanity out of being human. Humans would be great if they just weren't so human. I have high hopes for humankind, it's just that first we have to figure out what to do with the human part. So I agree with you. I too am skeptical being human is beneficial to being human, it's just that I'm not really sure what we'd do without it, either.

vintermann 10y ago

Although I think the disease model is wrong and destructive, there's a certain logic to AA's thinking that can't be easily dismissed. An addiction researcher put it like this: > If the consumer's sole motive for changing his level of patience is to escape an allocation that is dictated by his first order preference (including time preferences), but that contradicts his second order preferences, he will not be able to achieve this by rational means. The researcher proposed that it might be possible to escape this conundrum by seeing patience as valuable in itself. If you only value patience because you'd like to escape your addiction in the long term, you won't succeed, because you do in fact value the thing you're addicted to more in the short term. Yet, can you just choose to value patience in itself? What things you value can force you to change the things you value? Isn't it all dictated by our biology anyway, even if it isn't a disease? There are a lot of paradoxes about willpower. It may not be something you can think yourself out of, no matter how smart you are. It's not really surprising Robert Smith threw his hands up and decided he needed a miracle/supernatural help to break out of it. But maybe this is all the more reason to try to solve addiction as a social problem, not on an individual level as a problem of willpower (or disease).