8 ms·

I take the opposite view; this is the return of reputation. The internet ends the anonymity of urban living. Are you a chronic liar, a drunken slut, a responsi

by dmfdmf 17y ago

I take the opposite view; this is the return of reputation. The internet ends the anonymity of urban living. Are you a chronic liar, a drunken slut, a responsible employee or a good parent? Soon the world will know so act accordingly.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
praptak 17y ago
Not if it is anonymous. Chronic liars will be less queasy about making their competition look bad. Heck, I bet that if it catches on, you'll be able to buy "reputation".
- MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
  Agreed. With the old-fashioned rumor, there's always the chance that it will be traced back to you, providing a real disincentive to gossip. With fully anonymous rumor spreading, just go to town and make up all the shit you want.
  - isleyaardvark 17y ago
    But that cuts both ways, because anonymous internet rumors are worthless. At least with old-fashioned rumor, you were listening to somebody that you could make some judgement on trustworthiness (positive or negative). If anything reputation would be more important, somebody has to put their reputation on the line to criticize someone else.
    - MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
      Worthless? Really? Assume you're interviewing 2 people for a job, and they're both good candidates. However, 1 has a nasty anonymous review about how they suck at their job, and the other doesn't. Just because it's anonymous, you're going to fully, 100% ignore it? Or, could it possibly bias your decision by just a teensy bit?
      - lsc 17y ago
        and the other guy is completely anon online? I'll take the non-anon guy who has gotten smeared. I'm extremely unlikely to hire a person who I can't find online somewhere, unless I know them personally. I don't trust anonymous, and in this world, without that online identity, that's what you are.
        MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
        Where did I say that the 2nd guy is completely anonymous online?
        lsc 17y ago
        You didn't. Obviously a better reputation wins over a worse one... but many people seem to think that no online reputation /is/ a better online reputation, and I disagree with that.
xcombinator 17y ago
I never thought that way, interesting.Thanks
isleyaardvark 17y ago
Reputation is already very important online. How many forums implement some sort of karma system? Imagine an anonymous rumor about a new Apple product left in a comment in some random website. How much stock would you put in that versus the same rumor printed by John Gruber as an anonymous source. Both are anonymous, but Gruber would be putting his reputation on the line when he promotes a rumor.
- lsc 17y ago
  carma != reputation. Carma is built by saying what others on the form believe. if a job applicant has a high carma, I assume 1. they waste a lot of time on forms, and 2. they side with the herd on issues where there are strong feelings.
gizmo 17y ago
If that's true, then a pro-privacy group can spring up that fights trash with trash. Spread lies about everybody and you won't be able to distinguish between real gossip and fake gossip. Suddenly everybody is anonymous again, and you won't have a meaningful online reputation anymore. Unless... of course people claim ownership of their accusations. In which case the laws against libel come into play again.
- jorgecastillo 17y ago
  I like this idea. I am sure anonymous can make this happen in a very short time if this site becomes popular.
philk 17y ago
Are you a chronic liar, a drunken slut, a responsible employee or a good parent? Soon the world will know so act accordingly. More like "does someone think you're a chronic liar or a drunken slut" or "have you got on the wrong side of someone"? Better hope you can please everyone or this reputation of yours is ruined. This entire concept seems creepy, judgmental and open to abuse.
MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
"good parent" is an excellent example of how this is a terrible idea. A story from the spooky future... Father: "I told you to do your homework before flying on your jetpack with your space friends! You're grounded! Go to your room." Child stomps up stairs. Soon, the soft sound of typing "...and he routinely abuses his children, both sexually and psychologically. And he's a drunk."
- gizmo 17y ago
  Correction, spooky present. Right now children can effortlessly destroy the lives of parents, family members or teachers... by spreading exactly those kinds of lies.
  - hardik 17y ago
    exactly.. check out this "instructional" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiwreHjQiqs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiwreHjQiqs
j_baker 17y ago
Quite the contrary. Social sites aren't a replacement for human interaction. I think there's a lot of data out there about me and everyone else. I think we're in an age where data isn't as valuable because there's just so much of it. We're no better at putting it together. Show me a website that will literally tell you if a person is a chronic liar, drunken slut, or responsible parent and then I'll be impressed.
pw0ncakes 17y ago
Right, but few people have reputation worries regarding that which is objectively bad (e.g. criminal records for serious crimes). Most of it comes down to subjective preferences and events that are open to interpretation. An example: most of us would agree that there's nothing wrong with being gay, but most gay people wouldn't put it on a resume, knowing that there's still 1 out of 10 people who will have a problem with it. There's also nothing to gain, in a job search, by being public about heterosexuality. So sexual preference is (like politics and religion) just an area that many people choose to keep professionally private. One's political views could be beneficial-- most people would agree with my posts where I call Bush a fucking moron-- but generally people prefer to hold these cards close to their chests and be judged on their professional merits alone. Privacy is necessary not only for the few who have objectively bad (drunken slut, chronic liar) things to hide but also for the much greater pool of us who have things that they might be proud of (political activism, religious views) but wouldn't want to inject into their professional lives. Also, as with small towns in the past, there's the problem of reliability. Old-style small communities may have done a good job of policing some "indiscretions", but many have witch-burnings on their hands too... and we know those accusations weren't based in any reality whatsoever.
- realitygrill 17y ago
  Similar example: Say you're not particularly deferential to authority and can talk straight with such figures. You've got chutzpah. How should you signal this? For some more enlightened bosses, this is an extremely valuable trait (I'm thinking the Feynman & Bohr story at Los Alamos). But for most bosses, this is a pretty large negative. Maybe they're insecure or think you should know your place. Or perhaps more mildly, they might think you have a chip on your shoulder. I am pretty sure openly signalling certain traits HNers would consider good - like intellectual independence and curiosity - are a net negative socially and job-wise, especially after reading Schmidt's Disciplined Minds.
dmfdmf 17y ago
Wow, a lot of great comments and food for thought. Instead of answering each individually I will make some general comments here. To be clear, I think that online rep is unavoidably going to have impacts in real life. (How many here have looked at someone's profile to judge them when engaging in a discussion, or have done an online search to learn about that new girl or guy you are dating?) How this plays out I have no idea -- we are in the middle of a social revolution, see Clay Shirky "Thinking the Unthinkable". I didn't mean to imply that online rep does not have serious pros and cons and potential abuses that many mentioned -- so don't kill the messenger. Ultimately I think that one's reputation is an important value and people learning to behave in ways to protect it will be a good thing.
roundsquare 17y ago
I think the article is really agreeing with you, in a sense. Large problems (chronic liar, drunken slut, etc...) will become even more important because knowledge of smaller things (e.g. bong smoking in college) will become so common. We'll start separating out the real problems from the stupid stuff.

by dmfdmf 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

praptak 17y ago

Not if it is anonymous. Chronic liars will be less queasy about making their competition look bad. Heck, I bet that if it catches on, you'll be able to buy "reputation".

MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
Agreed. With the old-fashioned rumor, there's always the chance that it will be traced back to you, providing a real disincentive to gossip. With fully anonymous rumor spreading, just go to town and make up all the shit you want.
- isleyaardvark 17y ago
  But that cuts both ways, because anonymous internet rumors are worthless. At least with old-fashioned rumor, you were listening to somebody that you could make some judgement on trustworthiness (positive or negative). If anything reputation would be more important, somebody has to put their reputation on the line to criticize someone else.
  - MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
    Worthless? Really? Assume you're interviewing 2 people for a job, and they're both good candidates. However, 1 has a nasty anonymous review about how they suck at their job, and the other doesn't. Just because it's anonymous, you're going to fully, 100% ignore it? Or, could it possibly bias your decision by just a teensy bit?
    - lsc 17y ago
      and the other guy is completely anon online? I'll take the non-anon guy who has gotten smeared. I'm extremely unlikely to hire a person who I can't find online somewhere, unless I know them personally. I don't trust anonymous, and in this world, without that online identity, that's what you are.
      - MicahWedemeyer 17y ago
        Where did I say that the 2nd guy is completely anonymous online?
        lsc 17y ago
        You didn't. Obviously a better reputation wins over a worse one... but many people seem to think that no online reputation /is/ a better online reputation, and I disagree with that.

xcombinator 17y ago

I never thought that way, interesting.Thanks

isleyaardvark 17y ago

Reputation is already very important online. How many forums implement some sort of karma system? Imagine an anonymous rumor about a new Apple product left in a comment in some random website. How much stock would you put in that versus the same rumor printed by John Gruber as an anonymous source. Both are anonymous, but Gruber would be putting his reputation on the line when he promotes a rumor.

lsc 17y ago
carma != reputation. Carma is built by saying what others on the form believe. if a job applicant has a high carma, I assume 1. they waste a lot of time on forms, and 2. they side with the herd on issues where there are strong feelings.

gizmo 17y ago

If that's true, then a pro-privacy group can spring up that fights trash with trash. Spread lies about everybody and you won't be able to distinguish between real gossip and fake gossip. Suddenly everybody is anonymous again, and you won't have a meaningful online reputation anymore. Unless... of course people claim ownership of their accusations. In which case the laws against libel come into play again.

jorgecastillo 17y ago
I like this idea. I am sure anonymous can make this happen in a very short time if this site becomes popular.

philk 17y ago

Are you a chronic liar, a drunken slut, a responsible employee or a good parent? Soon the world will know so act accordingly. More like "does someone think you're a chronic liar or a drunken slut" or "have you got on the wrong side of someone"? Better hope you can please everyone or this reputation of yours is ruined. This entire concept seems creepy, judgmental and open to abuse.

MicahWedemeyer 17y ago

"good parent" is an excellent example of how this is a terrible idea. A story from the spooky future... Father: "I told you to do your homework before flying on your jetpack with your space friends! You're grounded! Go to your room." Child stomps up stairs. Soon, the soft sound of typing "...and he routinely abuses his children, both sexually and psychologically. And he's a drunk."

gizmo 17y ago
Correction, spooky present. Right now children can effortlessly destroy the lives of parents, family members or teachers... by spreading exactly those kinds of lies.
- hardik 17y ago
  exactly.. check out this "instructional" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiwreHjQiqs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiwreHjQiqs

j_baker 17y ago

Quite the contrary. Social sites aren't a replacement for human interaction. I think there's a lot of data out there about me and everyone else. I think we're in an age where data isn't as valuable because there's just so much of it. We're no better at putting it together. Show me a website that will literally tell you if a person is a chronic liar, drunken slut, or responsible parent and then I'll be impressed.

pw0ncakes 17y ago

Right, but few people have reputation worries regarding that which is objectively bad (e.g. criminal records for serious crimes). Most of it comes down to subjective preferences and events that are open to interpretation. An example: most of us would agree that there's nothing wrong with being gay, but most gay people wouldn't put it on a resume, knowing that there's still 1 out of 10 people who will have a problem with it. There's also nothing to gain, in a job search, by being public about heterosexuality. So sexual preference is (like politics and religion) just an area that many people choose to keep professionally private. One's political views could be beneficial-- most people would agree with my posts where I call Bush a fucking moron-- but generally people prefer to hold these cards close to their chests and be judged on their professional merits alone. Privacy is necessary not only for the few who have objectively bad (drunken slut, chronic liar) things to hide but also for the much greater pool of us who have things that they might be proud of (political activism, religious views) but wouldn't want to inject into their professional lives. Also, as with small towns in the past, there's the problem of reliability. Old-style small communities may have done a good job of policing some "indiscretions", but many have witch-burnings on their hands too... and we know those accusations weren't based in any reality whatsoever.

realitygrill 17y ago
Similar example: Say you're not particularly deferential to authority and can talk straight with such figures. You've got chutzpah. How should you signal this? For some more enlightened bosses, this is an extremely valuable trait (I'm thinking the Feynman & Bohr story at Los Alamos). But for most bosses, this is a pretty large negative. Maybe they're insecure or think you should know your place. Or perhaps more mildly, they might think you have a chip on your shoulder. I am pretty sure openly signalling certain traits HNers would consider good - like intellectual independence and curiosity - are a net negative socially and job-wise, especially after reading Schmidt's Disciplined Minds.

dmfdmf 17y ago

Wow, a lot of great comments and food for thought. Instead of answering each individually I will make some general comments here. To be clear, I think that online rep is unavoidably going to have impacts in real life. (How many here have looked at someone's profile to judge them when engaging in a discussion, or have done an online search to learn about that new girl or guy you are dating?) How this plays out I have no idea -- we are in the middle of a social revolution, see Clay Shirky "Thinking the Unthinkable". I didn't mean to imply that online rep does not have serious pros and cons and potential abuses that many mentioned -- so don't kill the messenger. Ultimately I think that one's reputation is an important value and people learning to behave in ways to protect it will be a good thing.

roundsquare 17y ago

I think the article is really agreeing with you, in a sense. Large problems (chronic liar, drunken slut, etc...) will become even more important because knowledge of smaller things (e.g. bong smoking in college) will become so common. We'll start separating out the real problems from the stupid stuff.