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I'm so tired to hear about growth. Growth is not a very beneficial situation to be in. We should focus on sustainability. Do we tell people to grow as fat as th

by didibus 10y ago

I'm so tired to hear about growth. Growth is not a very beneficial situation to be in. We should focus on sustainability. Do we tell people to grow as fat as they can be? No, we encourage a sustainable in and out, just what we need for a happy and healthy life. Billionaires are not a thousand times happier or healthier then millionaires. Growth is overrated. There's a baseline of wealth that we must sustain, then we need to focus on horizontally scaling that baseline to as many people as possible, and finally, we must work to sustain that scale too. Growth appears twice in this equation, but always at a very well defined scale. We need to grow to reach the baseline, and then grow to have everyone base-lined. Once we have achieved the above in a sustainable way, then we should focus all our remaining efforts into having fun, being curious, enjoying ourselves, and enjoying each others company. This should similarly be handled in a sustainable way. A heroine high is not a sustainable enjoyable and fun activity. Going for a walk along a park or a coast is. The dosage is important, a night out partying here and there is sustainable, day after day of it is not. Sprinkle in some learning and curiosity, I for example, would keep coding for pleasure. In fact, sustainability will probably motivate people towards sciences and technological advancement even faster, as we'll finally let free of our intrinsic motivations to do so. To quote Nietzsche: "To escape boredom, man works either beyond what his usual needs require, or else he invents play, that is, work that is designed to quiet no need other than that for working in general." The first part of that quote is Growth, endless, unhealthy, never ending Growth, simply to address our own boredom. The second part is sustainable life, easy, playful, and fun. I really hope as we progress, I stop hearing about Growth, and I start hearing a lot more about Sustainability.

jomamaxx 10y ago
"Growth is not a very beneficial situation to be in." Again this is false. There are so many financially illiterate people here on Hackernews. Growth is a great situation to be in. When there is growth - there is money for projects, hospitals, infrastructure etc. When there is no growth - everything goes out the window, and the first thing to go are longer term things like 'sustainability'. You want to switch to solar - then you need a lot of 'growth' - why? Because the US cannot function on 40 cents/kwh electricity. Now - growth by 'adding bodies' - which is where most growth comes from in the West - is bad. Immigration is where 80% of GDP growth comes from and that is definitely a Ponzi scheme. IF you normalize for growth across US and EU countries, it's much more similar. The US simply imports people to grow the GDP whereas EU does less of that. So, to your point, measuring GDP/capita would be a good start for 'sustainable growth'.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  I'm financially illiterate, so you'll have to pardon me. But why is growth necessary for spending? If my income is steady at $10,000,000 a year, I have money for projects, hospitals, and infrastructure. No growth, but I do have money.
  - jomamaxx 10y ago
    + Buying a ticket to ride the bus is 'consumption'. + The gas is 'consumption'. + Buying medical devices, medical equipment, paying for doctors - is all 'consumption'. + Food, clothing, internet, your mobile - it's all 'consumption' + Almost everything you buy is 'consumption' + Consumption drives most of the remaining parts of the economy - so no consumption, no B2B = no economy. + You will not have a $100K job of consumers stop buying things, you will have a $1K a year job.
  - abbasaamer 10y ago
    Not sure I'd call myself financially literate, but I do have an MBA and computer science degree for whatever that's worth. The short answer to that is it's necessary to encourage people to invest. $10,000,0000 is only a meaningful figure if it is spendable ... which means that people want to receive that money and others want to spend it. In order for someone with excess money to spend it, they need to be incentivized to do so. If they get no return on their money, then why would they spend? If on the other hand, they can grow their money by spending it, they will. That's why, for example, a VC would take the risk of spending it on a startup (or someone more risk averse would spend on bonds). If you're just stashing money under your mattress, then the economy comes to a halt. For the most part, people don't need $10,000,000 to live a happy life so the excess money they have will not be spent unless there is a growth opportunity to use it. Having said that, I agree with many others on here that "growth for the sake of growth" is dangerous and I'd like to see more focus on happiness (rather than money) and sustainability rather than growth. The growth spurt we had in the 20th century is likely not going to be reproduced in this century (the industrial revolution is a rare and unusual event). We need to find some way to keep this world moving forward in a low growth era, but I don't necessarily know how that will happen.
- 10y ago

by didibus 10y ago

jomamaxx 10y ago

"Growth is not a very beneficial situation to be in." Again this is false. There are so many financially illiterate people here on Hackernews. Growth is a great situation to be in. When there is growth - there is money for projects, hospitals, infrastructure etc. When there is no growth - everything goes out the window, and the first thing to go are longer term things like 'sustainability'. You want to switch to solar - then you need a lot of 'growth' - why? Because the US cannot function on 40 cents/kwh electricity. Now - growth by 'adding bodies' - which is where most growth comes from in the West - is bad. Immigration is where 80% of GDP growth comes from and that is definitely a Ponzi scheme. IF you normalize for growth across US and EU countries, it's much more similar. The US simply imports people to grow the GDP whereas EU does less of that. So, to your point, measuring GDP/capita would be a good start for 'sustainable growth'.

erikpukinskis 10y ago
I'm financially illiterate, so you'll have to pardon me. But why is growth necessary for spending? If my income is steady at $10,000,000 a year, I have money for projects, hospitals, and infrastructure. No growth, but I do have money.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  + Buying a ticket to ride the bus is 'consumption'. + The gas is 'consumption'. + Buying medical devices, medical equipment, paying for doctors - is all 'consumption'. + Food, clothing, internet, your mobile - it's all 'consumption' + Almost everything you buy is 'consumption' + Consumption drives most of the remaining parts of the economy - so no consumption, no B2B = no economy. + You will not have a $100K job of consumers stop buying things, you will have a $1K a year job.
- abbasaamer 10y ago
  Not sure I'd call myself financially literate, but I do have an MBA and computer science degree for whatever that's worth. The short answer to that is it's necessary to encourage people to invest. $10,000,0000 is only a meaningful figure if it is spendable ... which means that people want to receive that money and others want to spend it. In order for someone with excess money to spend it, they need to be incentivized to do so. If they get no return on their money, then why would they spend? If on the other hand, they can grow their money by spending it, they will. That's why, for example, a VC would take the risk of spending it on a startup (or someone more risk averse would spend on bonds). If you're just stashing money under your mattress, then the economy comes to a halt. For the most part, people don't need $10,000,000 to live a happy life so the excess money they have will not be spent unless there is a growth opportunity to use it. Having said that, I agree with many others on here that "growth for the sake of growth" is dangerous and I'd like to see more focus on happiness (rather than money) and sustainability rather than growth. The growth spurt we had in the 20th century is likely not going to be reproduced in this century (the industrial revolution is a rare and unusual event). We need to find some way to keep this world moving forward in a low growth era, but I don't necessarily know how that will happen.
10y ago