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The 2012 MBP bought new today for $1100 will serve a lot of people really well. An $800 Dell XPS will serve them much better, last them much longer, and keep t

The 2012 MBP bought new today for $1100 will serve a lot of people really well. An $800 Dell XPS will serve them much better, last them much longer, and keep them much happier. A $500 Chromebook might be an even better choice. Unless you have no escape from the Apple eco system lock in, it's almost impossible to recommend a mac to anyone anymore. Even if Apple does come up with a great refresh to their lineup, their treatment of the mac over the last couple of years means they might simply do this again, which means I really cannot recommend them anymore. Apple has pretty much destroyed all teh goodwill they built up with me, and the only way I can recommend a mac anymore is if they open up OS X to all hardware makers (but then, I'd trust Windows which has been doing that for decades, over OSX which has not and Apple would almost certainly have trouble supporting OSX on non Apple devices). And finally, because of how deliberately tied up Apple's ecosystem is, that means I cannot recommend iPhones/iPads anymore despite iOS being a superior platform anymore. I genuinely feel Apple is trading away their past reputation in an effort to extract money from consumers who may not know better.

hyperbovine 10y ago
> The 2012 MBP bought new today for $1100 will serve a lot of people really well. I am writing on exactly such a device, and I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to upgrade. The display is incredible, it's every bit as fast and responsive as the day I bought it, it doesn't creak or feel like it's about to fall apart. When you think back to the late 90s, when operating a five year old laptop felt like using a mechanical typewriter, it's truly amazing. I wonder if this will serve as some sort of high water mark for Apple product design. This machine has literally turned out to be years ahead of its time.
- flashman 10y ago
  Agreed. The article says: > there’s a certain point at which it just starts to look like absentmindedness Yes, but there's also a certain point at which a computer is fast enough, powerful enough, capacious enough, has enough battery life... The 2012 MBP is by no means state-of-the-art, but it is objectively good enough for most purposes.
- raybb 10y ago
  May I ask what the specs of your MBP are? (I'm kinda in the market)
  - hyperbovine 10y ago
    MacBook Pro (Retina, Mid 2012) 2.3 GHz Intel Core i7 8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB The 256gb SSD proved to be a slight adjustment, but hasn't been a major issue thanks to streaming.
lostlogin 10y ago
> open up OS X to all hardware makers < we tried this, it was terrible. As a lifelong Mac user I have never had a better time with them. Sure, the product line needs refreshing, but the prices are low, software is compatible and mostly works and people don't look at you blankly when you say "Mac". Now I just need to get the IT department to stop calling them "MACS" and I'll be happy.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  >> open up OS X to all hardware makers < we tried this, it was terrible. Maybe you should try it again? Some OS X power users/'influencers'[1] are using and recommending Hackintoshes[2] for the performance boost as you have the flexibility to add heavy-lifting GPUs and add a butt-load of 3rd party RAM (since it will be non-soldered). 1. I forgot the name(s), I'm not into the Apple 'scene' 2. This is without OEM driver support, so the compatible hardware list has to be carefully curated. Imagine a world were OEMs could officially provide OS X drivers...
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    It might be good, but we did actually try it, and it wasn't. What has changed that might make it better? Presumably hardware is more reliable these days?
freshflowers 10y ago
I doubt a Dell XPS will last longer. The problem with non-Apple laptops, with few (and expensive) exceptions, is the build quality. It's 2016, people treat laptops like any common electronic household item, and the majority of non-Apple laptops, especially Dells, start to look pretty ragged after less than 2 years. That's why MacBooks tend to have a decent resell value, whereas you cannot even give other old laptops away.
- hiram112 10y ago
  XPS is technically part of Dell's consumer line. The business Precisions and Latitudes are much sturdier. All of Apple's products are essentially business grade, and you're definitely paying for the premium. People tend to overrate Apple's build quality simply because it really is miles ahead of anything else one can purchase at Best Buy or other retail stores.
  - soulbadguy 10y ago
    This exactly. The experience both in term of customer support, driver stability and hardware reliability of business line of PC is very different from the consumer side. It's a shame most people don't know that. And IMO Thinkpad,latitudes and elite books have much better keyboard that the current MacBook, but apple still wins in screen and battery performance
- leviathant 10y ago
  I've got a Dell E1505 I bought refurbished in 2016 that runs Windows 10. It's been dropped a couple of times from the door of an old Ford Econoline van with door pockets that, as it turned out, weren't in great shape. In 2010, I received a brand new Mac Mini. We had at that point been using the Dell laptop to run Hulu and Netflix, and I decided to swap in the Mac Mini. Turns out the Mac Mini couldn't run 1080p without chugging a little bit, but the laptop from four years earlier had no problem keeping up. It mostly sat in a drawer, as I needed something faster for video and audio work. Over the years I'd try out Windows upgrades as they came through. Another fun point - It came with Windows XP. When the Win 7 beta came out, I installed that just to see - it ran surprisingly well. Back in the drawer it went until Windows 8's preview came out - that also installed without any issue, and ran surprisingly well. When Windows 10 rolled around, it actually upgraded from the Windows 8 beta to a full-fledged installation of Windows 10. Never ended up paying for an upgrade to the operating system! The internal wifi did burn out at some point, and I'm sure the screen was dimmer than when I'd first gotten it, but other than that? You could browse the internet and run some basic apps. We finally donated it a couple of months ago. I can't argue about the resell value of Dell laptops, but that E1505 had build quality in spades, and better longevity than the equivalent Mac. Can you even put the latest OS X on a Macbook from a decade ago?

hyperbovine 10y ago

> The 2012 MBP bought new today for $1100 will serve a lot of people really well. I am writing on exactly such a device, and I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to upgrade. The display is incredible, it's every bit as fast and responsive as the day I bought it, it doesn't creak or feel like it's about to fall apart. When you think back to the late 90s, when operating a five year old laptop felt like using a mechanical typewriter, it's truly amazing. I wonder if this will serve as some sort of high water mark for Apple product design. This machine has literally turned out to be years ahead of its time.

flashman 10y ago
Agreed. The article says: > there’s a certain point at which it just starts to look like absentmindedness Yes, but there's also a certain point at which a computer is fast enough, powerful enough, capacious enough, has enough battery life... The 2012 MBP is by no means state-of-the-art, but it is objectively good enough for most purposes.
raybb 10y ago
May I ask what the specs of your MBP are? (I'm kinda in the market)
- hyperbovine 10y ago
  MacBook Pro (Retina, Mid 2012) 2.3 GHz Intel Core i7 8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB The 256gb SSD proved to be a slight adjustment, but hasn't been a major issue thanks to streaming.

lostlogin 10y ago

> open up OS X to all hardware makers < we tried this, it was terrible. As a lifelong Mac user I have never had a better time with them. Sure, the product line needs refreshing, but the prices are low, software is compatible and mostly works and people don't look at you blankly when you say "Mac". Now I just need to get the IT department to stop calling them "MACS" and I'll be happy.

sangnoir 10y ago
>> open up OS X to all hardware makers < we tried this, it was terrible. Maybe you should try it again? Some OS X power users/'influencers'[1] are using and recommending Hackintoshes[2] for the performance boost as you have the flexibility to add heavy-lifting GPUs and add a butt-load of 3rd party RAM (since it will be non-soldered). 1. I forgot the name(s), I'm not into the Apple 'scene' 2. This is without OEM driver support, so the compatible hardware list has to be carefully curated. Imagine a world were OEMs could officially provide OS X drivers...
- lostlogin 10y ago
  It might be good, but we did actually try it, and it wasn't. What has changed that might make it better? Presumably hardware is more reliable these days?

freshflowers 10y ago

I doubt a Dell XPS will last longer. The problem with non-Apple laptops, with few (and expensive) exceptions, is the build quality. It's 2016, people treat laptops like any common electronic household item, and the majority of non-Apple laptops, especially Dells, start to look pretty ragged after less than 2 years. That's why MacBooks tend to have a decent resell value, whereas you cannot even give other old laptops away.

hiram112 10y ago
XPS is technically part of Dell's consumer line. The business Precisions and Latitudes are much sturdier. All of Apple's products are essentially business grade, and you're definitely paying for the premium. People tend to overrate Apple's build quality simply because it really is miles ahead of anything else one can purchase at Best Buy or other retail stores.
- soulbadguy 10y ago
  This exactly. The experience both in term of customer support, driver stability and hardware reliability of business line of PC is very different from the consumer side. It's a shame most people don't know that. And IMO Thinkpad,latitudes and elite books have much better keyboard that the current MacBook, but apple still wins in screen and battery performance
leviathant 10y ago
I've got a Dell E1505 I bought refurbished in 2016 that runs Windows 10. It's been dropped a couple of times from the door of an old Ford Econoline van with door pockets that, as it turned out, weren't in great shape. In 2010, I received a brand new Mac Mini. We had at that point been using the Dell laptop to run Hulu and Netflix, and I decided to swap in the Mac Mini. Turns out the Mac Mini couldn't run 1080p without chugging a little bit, but the laptop from four years earlier had no problem keeping up. It mostly sat in a drawer, as I needed something faster for video and audio work. Over the years I'd try out Windows upgrades as they came through. Another fun point - It came with Windows XP. When the Win 7 beta came out, I installed that just to see - it ran surprisingly well. Back in the drawer it went until Windows 8's preview came out - that also installed without any issue, and ran surprisingly well. When Windows 10 rolled around, it actually upgraded from the Windows 8 beta to a full-fledged installation of Windows 10. Never ended up paying for an upgrade to the operating system! The internal wifi did burn out at some point, and I'm sure the screen was dimmer than when I'd first gotten it, but other than that? You could browse the internet and run some basic apps. We finally donated it a couple of months ago. I can't argue about the resell value of Dell laptops, but that E1505 had build quality in spades, and better longevity than the equivalent Mac. Can you even put the latest OS X on a Macbook from a decade ago?