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We've been pretty loyal buying Macs, but at this point we just cannot justify it anymore. We had a brief flirtation with giving people iPads instead of PCs, an

We've been pretty loyal buying Macs, but at this point we just cannot justify it anymore. We had a brief flirtation with giving people iPads instead of PCs, and that is better from a support / update point of view. But, the desire for a "real computer" is pretty strong with the generation of people we have on staff. At this point, I'm reading up on Chrome books and Chrome boxes to see how simple IT things (e.g. network login, server storage) are managed and can we use them with local not cloud storage[1]. We might do more Win 10, but Microsoft sure isn't making it easy with their OS. I guess the Enterprise edition might be ok. Creative arts will probably always be Mac, but we are an all Adobe institution after the Final Cut Pro X fiasco so even that is not a certainty. 1) I have to obey a couple of very un-fun local laws and will buy old machines rather than deal with problems in that area

pmontra 10y ago
Could you elaborate on the last point (law requirements for local storage) ? I can think about many cases but I'd love to know about a real one.
- protomyth 10y ago
  We have a local law that talks about research data[1] and its movement. The problem is if some security issue happens in the cloud, it is likely to leak documents and I am a bit worried about the wording as it applies to liability. Storing them locally and have a data breach would be problematic, but at least defensible 1) Basically, no data may be shared unless approved by a local institution. Its legacy from other groups taking the data we generate and writing grants to get money that never benefits the local people or institutions. A long, long story that someone should write a book on.
  - pmontra 10y ago
    Waiting for that book :-) A data breach should be equivalent to having paper documents stolen from a safe, unless there is negligence. Did you check with a lawyer, right?
    - protomyth 10y ago
      I'm not writing it. When I finally leave, I won't be back (all my family has long moved away) and it will probably take a bit to decompress. Not as much as the first time, but I had to deal with politicians then and I really don't think it helped my mental health. I still have a box of papers from that era and revisiting that for a book would not be a good thing. I had questions answered by a local authority. Data breach would be interesting because it would go federal pretty quick.
yuhong 10y ago
I think many of the problems you are talking about comes from declining PC sales.
tim333 10y ago
>we just cannot justify it anymore Have you looked at total cost of ownership? From the ‘Every Mac we buy is making and saving IBM money’ - IBM article: "Just 5 percent of IBM’s Mac using employees need to call the help desk; In contrast an astonishing 40 percent of PC using staff call the help desk." http://www.computerworld.com/article/2998315/apple-mac/every-mac-we-buy-is-making-and-saving-ibm-money-ibm.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2998315/apple-mac/every...
- StevePerkins 10y ago
  Were the employees who received MacBooks selected randomly/arbitrarily, or was it by request? A pretty key point to consider, since people who prefer "non-standard" technology tend to be more tech-savvy users, who require less support. I'm sure that Chrome users also call the help desk less frequently than people who use Internet Explorer (or Safari for that matter).
  - kodr 10y ago
    or it could be the fact that you don't have to install an antivirus. I have a Dell at work and the company policy is to have mcAfee installed. It prevents a lot of stuff from working (need to use virtual box 4 for example)
    - wmf 10y ago
      IBM requires antivirus on Macs, but it may be less broken than Windows antivirus software.
      - majewsky 10y ago
        I have McAfee on my work Macbook, but I don't have an opinion on whether it's "less broken". I used a Windows 7 Thinkpad before the Macbook (also with McAfee), and didn't notice McAfee at all in these 3 years. In 2 years on the Mac, I noticed one interesting UI bug where the taskbar icon says "Your Mac is Not Secure", but when you click on it to open the main UI, the window will say "Your Mac is Secure", and the taskbar icon then agrees with the main window from that point on. Just a glitch, nothing that I would consider noticably broken.
gareim 10y ago
Sorry, can you elaborate on why you can't justify buying Macs anymore? It sounds like you're interested in local storage and you're okay with buying old machines if it means you don't deal with cloud, so how come Macs don't fall under this?
- protomyth 10y ago
  I cannot justify them because they are old and we keep computers for a long time. If we buy an old computer now, its useful lifetime is reduced. We want new, always. The local storage is a requirement for new computers. The only Mac we will purchase currently is the MacBook. If MacRumors says don't buy then we don't buy.
  - gareim 10y ago
    >and will buy old machines rather than deal with problems in that area Assuming that you don't find another alternative, then I assume buying old Macs would then be okay? I'm not sure what the rationale is for not buying one year old laptops if performance is about level (Skylake was not that earth shattering).
    - protomyth 10y ago
      Ok, not great and definitely under protest (I guess I scream at the ceiling). At some point, we might need to go to Win 10 and a built PC for Adobe. Might be good training for a PC Hardware class. Its one year closer to being EOL, plus Apple has been on a bit of a no software support for older models streak. The money needs to stretch as far as possible, we're not rich.
      - lostlogin 10y ago
        That streak of low/no support started around the time I was born. Their support of old hardware is better now than ever imho. It's a great time to own an old Mac as even the new ones are old, so you don't pay the penalty of having to upgrade which you did 5-10 years ago.
theonemind 10y ago
What do they (or you) mean by "real computer", just out of curiosity?
- protomyth 10y ago
  They want laptop or desktop form factor. "Those are real computers and I need a real computer for my work." Believe me, I was going to get the Carpentry class to build nice stands with monitors and keyboard holders. It would have been epic. Surface might be close, and we haven't bought an iPad Pro yet.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
> We had a brief flirtation with giving people iPads instead of PCs, and that is better from a support / update point of view. But, the desire for a "real computer" is pretty strong with the generation of people we have on staff. That's an odd way to put it, as if your people are being eccentric for expecting fully-functional computers. iPads have their uses, but they're not at all comparable for many tasks. It's as if you'd tried offering people motor scooters as company cars, and were surprised when they wanted "real vehicles."
- protomyth 10y ago
  Well, when those who we gave iPads literally[1] don't use anything but Outlook, a web browser, and Word with the weekly foray into Excel for time sheets, one might be forgiven for wondering if a Honda might be more suitable than a F-350. 1) in the dictionary definition sense
  - callalex 10y ago
    Try transferring information between the apps you cited on an iPad and compare that to the experience on a real computer. They are in different leagues still unfortunately.
    - protomyth 10y ago
      Other than mail attachments, the group of possible iPad users did not transfer data between apps as a use case. I did do my research and we hit psychological not functional reasons. I do agree with the general direction of your comment. For example, The business office would not be a place to even consider iPads. 27" iMacs and 34" LG 21x9 monitors are much appreciated by that crowd. Spreadsheet lovers love 21x9 displays.
      - callalex 10y ago
        I would argue that adding an attachment to an email reply is still a second or third class experience on iOS. You have to figure out how to get your app containing the file to copy the file to the clipboard, which is extremely inconsistent and undiscoverable between different apps. The problem is even worse for non-technical users that struggle to distinguish between an undocumented long-press and an undocumented double tap (don't even get me started on the wording behind "share to... Clipboard"). I really can't wait for the day when they solve this problem.
vetinari 10y ago
Did you find anything interesting about Chromebooks? I was also checking on them, but the management of them always ended up on needing Google Apps for Work and getting licenses for their management. It looks like it is impossible to have them plugged into on-site software, independent of Google...
- protomyth 10y ago
  No, it looks like the management on those things is worse than iPads, but I am still looking. Yeah, on-site is looking to be a no go.
- anonbanker 10y ago
  https://galliumos.org https://galliumos.org makes chromebooks work with desktop applications.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    The problem with Chromebooks is not that they do not run desktop applications. That's actually an advantage from certain point of view. The problem is that the machine and user provisioning is dependent on Google. I want to be able to load the machine with certificates, VPN profiles, Wi-Fi settings, proxy settings, IdM configuration, directory info, etc independently from Google. Imagine, if Google servers ceased to exists tomorrow: the machines and all the provisioning processes must still work, as if nothing happened. Yes, not paying per device/per month for quasi-monopoly service is also desirable.
    - anonbanker 10y ago
      which you could do with just about any stripped-down linux distro. Heck, in gentoo, you could build it all and deploy a pre-built/configured tarball extracted to the root directory on every client machine you controlled. none of which you seek is exclusive to ChromeOS, except the default lack of native desktop apps.
      - 10y ago
Yhippa 10y ago
I just DJ'd a wedding on a refurbished Acer Chromebook that I got for about $130 and is several years old. Uses Google Play Music for it's activity playlists and the bride's playlist and I was good to go. Would be nice if I could cross-fade but I'm an amateur and don't have the right equipment. I'm continually impressed how good Chromebooks are in terms of battery life, portability, and utility. Just wish it was easier to run desktop apps on it.
- siquick 10y ago
  You're not a DJ without the D
  - princeb 10y ago
    a hard disk jockey, maybe.
- anonbanker 10y ago
  https://galliumos.org https://galliumos.org will make that chromebook run desktop apps.
ingenieros 10y ago
If you are an "Adobe institution" why are Chromebooks even an option?
- protomyth 10y ago
  Most people don't have Adobe products on their desktop. We teach and use those products, but I'm not a psycho who says everyone needs the exact same machine. Hated that crap when I was doing development, and am not going to pull that stunt as a Sys Admin. We also have a lab GIS machines that are tricked out and cannot be replaced with anything else.
JoBrad 10y ago
We switched to using Chrome boxes instead of the older tele-conference machines we used. They are loads better, and less than $1k USD each, too.

pmontra 10y ago

Could you elaborate on the last point (law requirements for local storage) ? I can think about many cases but I'd love to know about a real one.

protomyth 10y ago
We have a local law that talks about research data[1] and its movement. The problem is if some security issue happens in the cloud, it is likely to leak documents and I am a bit worried about the wording as it applies to liability. Storing them locally and have a data breach would be problematic, but at least defensible 1) Basically, no data may be shared unless approved by a local institution. Its legacy from other groups taking the data we generate and writing grants to get money that never benefits the local people or institutions. A long, long story that someone should write a book on.
- pmontra 10y ago
  Waiting for that book :-) A data breach should be equivalent to having paper documents stolen from a safe, unless there is negligence. Did you check with a lawyer, right?
  - protomyth 10y ago
    I'm not writing it. When I finally leave, I won't be back (all my family has long moved away) and it will probably take a bit to decompress. Not as much as the first time, but I had to deal with politicians then and I really don't think it helped my mental health. I still have a box of papers from that era and revisiting that for a book would not be a good thing. I had questions answered by a local authority. Data breach would be interesting because it would go federal pretty quick.

yuhong 10y ago

I think many of the problems you are talking about comes from declining PC sales.

tim333 10y ago

>we just cannot justify it anymore Have you looked at total cost of ownership? From the ‘Every Mac we buy is making and saving IBM money’ - IBM article: "Just 5 percent of IBM’s Mac using employees need to call the help desk; In contrast an astonishing 40 percent of PC using staff call the help desk." http://www.computerworld.com/article/2998315/apple-mac/every-mac-we-buy-is-making-and-saving-ibm-money-ibm.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2998315/apple-mac/every...

StevePerkins 10y ago
Were the employees who received MacBooks selected randomly/arbitrarily, or was it by request? A pretty key point to consider, since people who prefer "non-standard" technology tend to be more tech-savvy users, who require less support. I'm sure that Chrome users also call the help desk less frequently than people who use Internet Explorer (or Safari for that matter).
- kodr 10y ago
  or it could be the fact that you don't have to install an antivirus. I have a Dell at work and the company policy is to have mcAfee installed. It prevents a lot of stuff from working (need to use virtual box 4 for example)
  - wmf 10y ago
    IBM requires antivirus on Macs, but it may be less broken than Windows antivirus software.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      I have McAfee on my work Macbook, but I don't have an opinion on whether it's "less broken". I used a Windows 7 Thinkpad before the Macbook (also with McAfee), and didn't notice McAfee at all in these 3 years. In 2 years on the Mac, I noticed one interesting UI bug where the taskbar icon says "Your Mac is Not Secure", but when you click on it to open the main UI, the window will say "Your Mac is Secure", and the taskbar icon then agrees with the main window from that point on. Just a glitch, nothing that I would consider noticably broken.

gareim 10y ago

Sorry, can you elaborate on why you can't justify buying Macs anymore? It sounds like you're interested in local storage and you're okay with buying old machines if it means you don't deal with cloud, so how come Macs don't fall under this?

protomyth 10y ago
I cannot justify them because they are old and we keep computers for a long time. If we buy an old computer now, its useful lifetime is reduced. We want new, always. The local storage is a requirement for new computers. The only Mac we will purchase currently is the MacBook. If MacRumors says don't buy then we don't buy.
- gareim 10y ago
  >and will buy old machines rather than deal with problems in that area Assuming that you don't find another alternative, then I assume buying old Macs would then be okay? I'm not sure what the rationale is for not buying one year old laptops if performance is about level (Skylake was not that earth shattering).
  - protomyth 10y ago
    Ok, not great and definitely under protest (I guess I scream at the ceiling). At some point, we might need to go to Win 10 and a built PC for Adobe. Might be good training for a PC Hardware class. Its one year closer to being EOL, plus Apple has been on a bit of a no software support for older models streak. The money needs to stretch as far as possible, we're not rich.
    - lostlogin 10y ago
      That streak of low/no support started around the time I was born. Their support of old hardware is better now than ever imho. It's a great time to own an old Mac as even the new ones are old, so you don't pay the penalty of having to upgrade which you did 5-10 years ago.

theonemind 10y ago

What do they (or you) mean by "real computer", just out of curiosity?

protomyth 10y ago
They want laptop or desktop form factor. "Those are real computers and I need a real computer for my work." Believe me, I was going to get the Carpentry class to build nice stands with monitors and keyboard holders. It would have been epic. Surface might be close, and we haven't bought an iPad Pro yet.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

> We had a brief flirtation with giving people iPads instead of PCs, and that is better from a support / update point of view. But, the desire for a "real computer" is pretty strong with the generation of people we have on staff. That's an odd way to put it, as if your people are being eccentric for expecting fully-functional computers. iPads have their uses, but they're not at all comparable for many tasks. It's as if you'd tried offering people motor scooters as company cars, and were surprised when they wanted "real vehicles."

protomyth 10y ago
Well, when those who we gave iPads literally[1] don't use anything but Outlook, a web browser, and Word with the weekly foray into Excel for time sheets, one might be forgiven for wondering if a Honda might be more suitable than a F-350. 1) in the dictionary definition sense
- callalex 10y ago
  Try transferring information between the apps you cited on an iPad and compare that to the experience on a real computer. They are in different leagues still unfortunately.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    Other than mail attachments, the group of possible iPad users did not transfer data between apps as a use case. I did do my research and we hit psychological not functional reasons. I do agree with the general direction of your comment. For example, The business office would not be a place to even consider iPads. 27" iMacs and 34" LG 21x9 monitors are much appreciated by that crowd. Spreadsheet lovers love 21x9 displays.
    - callalex 10y ago
      I would argue that adding an attachment to an email reply is still a second or third class experience on iOS. You have to figure out how to get your app containing the file to copy the file to the clipboard, which is extremely inconsistent and undiscoverable between different apps. The problem is even worse for non-technical users that struggle to distinguish between an undocumented long-press and an undocumented double tap (don't even get me started on the wording behind "share to... Clipboard"). I really can't wait for the day when they solve this problem.

vetinari 10y ago

Did you find anything interesting about Chromebooks? I was also checking on them, but the management of them always ended up on needing Google Apps for Work and getting licenses for their management. It looks like it is impossible to have them plugged into on-site software, independent of Google...

protomyth 10y ago
No, it looks like the management on those things is worse than iPads, but I am still looking. Yeah, on-site is looking to be a no go.
anonbanker 10y ago
https://galliumos.org https://galliumos.org makes chromebooks work with desktop applications.
- vetinari 10y ago
  The problem with Chromebooks is not that they do not run desktop applications. That's actually an advantage from certain point of view. The problem is that the machine and user provisioning is dependent on Google. I want to be able to load the machine with certificates, VPN profiles, Wi-Fi settings, proxy settings, IdM configuration, directory info, etc independently from Google. Imagine, if Google servers ceased to exists tomorrow: the machines and all the provisioning processes must still work, as if nothing happened. Yes, not paying per device/per month for quasi-monopoly service is also desirable.
  - anonbanker 10y ago
    which you could do with just about any stripped-down linux distro. Heck, in gentoo, you could build it all and deploy a pre-built/configured tarball extracted to the root directory on every client machine you controlled. none of which you seek is exclusive to ChromeOS, except the default lack of native desktop apps.
    - 10y ago

Yhippa 10y ago

I just DJ'd a wedding on a refurbished Acer Chromebook that I got for about $130 and is several years old. Uses Google Play Music for it's activity playlists and the bride's playlist and I was good to go. Would be nice if I could cross-fade but I'm an amateur and don't have the right equipment. I'm continually impressed how good Chromebooks are in terms of battery life, portability, and utility. Just wish it was easier to run desktop apps on it.

siquick 10y ago
You're not a DJ without the D
- princeb 10y ago
  a hard disk jockey, maybe.
anonbanker 10y ago
https://galliumos.org https://galliumos.org will make that chromebook run desktop apps.

ingenieros 10y ago

If you are an "Adobe institution" why are Chromebooks even an option?

protomyth 10y ago
Most people don't have Adobe products on their desktop. We teach and use those products, but I'm not a psycho who says everyone needs the exact same machine. Hated that crap when I was doing development, and am not going to pull that stunt as a Sys Admin. We also have a lab GIS machines that are tricked out and cannot be replaced with anything else.

JoBrad 10y ago

We switched to using Chrome boxes instead of the older tele-conference machines we used. They are loads better, and less than $1k USD each, too.