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It would be really cool if Tor became like an open web standard that every browser supported. We would be able to freely host services with incredibly strong pr

It would be really cool if Tor became like an open web standard that every browser supported. We would be able to freely host services with incredibly strong privacy guarantees and then work them into existing web infrastructure so that normal users can benefit from strong privacy without having any special knowledge. Doing the same thing with Bitcoin wallets would also be a good idea, though I'd want for there to be a much better security model before that's considered ... otherwise every new browser zero-day will be the equivalent of being able to mass hack bank accounts.

2bitencryption 10y ago
> It would be really cool if Tor became like an open web standard that every browser supported. Isn't it already? My understanding is that nothing is stopping you from using the Tor service as a proxy for all your traffic. They just offer the Browser Bundle to make it dead simple for users. You could download their so-called "expert bundle" and use that to route any traffic you want. https://www.torproject.org/download/download.html.en https://www.torproject.org/download/download.html.en
- scrollaway 10y ago
  I think parent means natively supporting tor as a protocol in the browser. Eg another "incognito mode", and native support for the onion tld. It would indeed be cool.
  - colejohnson66 10y ago
    That's what I thought. The closest you can get to viewing onion URLs outside of Tor is a website like Tor2web[0]. The downside of these solutions is that you don't get the benefit of onion routing. [0]: https://www.tor2web.org/ https://www.tor2web.org/
rincebrain 10y ago
The only problem with that is limited levels of trust - e.g. if you have Tor support baked into your browser, you have to trust that the magic "Tor on" button isn't compromised. This isn't a problem that just using Tor in an existing browser install is supposed to solve/be any better at, but it suddenly becomes an incredible target for any state actors/other large-scale entities who know they're going to want to suppress communication shortly.
- Spivak 10y ago
  True, but for casual users, simply being able to natively and transparently access .onion sites would be cool even if it didn't have the privacy of the Tor Browser Bundle.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    The increase in Tor traffic would also be hugely useful for users who do depend on Tor. That much more chaff for Eve to have to eliminate.
Snesker 10y ago
This will never happen. There's too much utilitarian purpose in scamming the elderly and ignorant into thinking their web browsing is private when they hit private browsing mode. The cabal of backdoored-by-default hardware will never lose its complete monopoly on normal users. Especially not after a few more years of logging every human-internet and human-computer interaction. Discussing firefox, or anything else, on this website is a petty distraction compared to the real and substantive danger most of humanity and all of 'humanity' faces.
micaksica 10y ago
I agree with this. "Tor Browser Mode" should become the default "Private browsing mode" on Firefox. It seems to me that a lot of uneducated users seem to have the idea that Incognito/Private mode does, somehow, give them more anonymity in a way other than locally. The extra streaming traffic would probably cripple Tor exit nodes in the short run if Mozilla didn't run worldwide fast exits on their own, but it'd be a start in a good direction, IMO. I'm sure someone will come along and tell me that "this isn't what Tor is useful for," but as far as I am concerned Tor has a PR problem. If everyone uses Tor as part of Firefox Private Browsing, a lot, lot more normal people become Tor users, not "extremists" or "dissidents" or "criminals", the headless horsemen of the anonymity apocalypse.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > It seems to me that a lot of uneducated users seem to have the idea that Incognito/Private mode does, somehow, give them more anonymity in a way other than locally. Well, there is this "tracking protection" thing that they added in FF42 but I don't know how it works (and frankly I don't care because I'm using a tracking blocker anyway).
- jrochkind1 10y ago
  > if Mozilla didn't run worldwide fast exits on their own If a huge portion of tor traffic is going through exit nodes owned by one organization and presumably deployed on a uniform consistent infrastructure, this becomes a prime target for hackers, state-sponsored or otherwise.
  - micaksica 10y ago
    Tor itself is already a prime target for hackers. There are plenty of malicious exit nodes as is; as for nation-states, the cost of entry into polluting the Tor network with your own circuits to probabilistically deanonymize users is low enough as is that you'd be stupid not to do it. By the same logic, torservers.net shouldn't exist, or ipredator's massive exit. Tor has a fair amount of relay bandwidth; Mozilla running exit nodes adds strength to where the bigger bottleneck is. There isn't a lot of personal risk in running middles or guards to the common techie; an exit node with abusive traffic can get your house raided in the United States [1] and Germany makes you responsible for traffic on your IP [2]. They have the legal and personnel resources to be able to deal with abuse complaints from bad actors, and should, for the sake of the network they support. [1] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/seattle-police-raid-home-privacy-activists-who-maintain-tor-anonymity-network-node-1552524 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/seattle-police-raid-home-privacy-ac... [2] http://www.young-germany.de/topic/live/your-digital-rights-in-germany http://www.young-germany.de/topic/live/your-digital-rights-i...

2bitencryption 10y ago

> It would be really cool if Tor became like an open web standard that every browser supported. Isn't it already? My understanding is that nothing is stopping you from using the Tor service as a proxy for all your traffic. They just offer the Browser Bundle to make it dead simple for users. You could download their so-called "expert bundle" and use that to route any traffic you want. https://www.torproject.org/download/download.html.en https://www.torproject.org/download/download.html.en

scrollaway 10y ago
I think parent means natively supporting tor as a protocol in the browser. Eg another "incognito mode", and native support for the onion tld. It would indeed be cool.
- colejohnson66 10y ago
  That's what I thought. The closest you can get to viewing onion URLs outside of Tor is a website like Tor2web[0]. The downside of these solutions is that you don't get the benefit of onion routing. [0]: https://www.tor2web.org/ https://www.tor2web.org/

rincebrain 10y ago

The only problem with that is limited levels of trust - e.g. if you have Tor support baked into your browser, you have to trust that the magic "Tor on" button isn't compromised. This isn't a problem that just using Tor in an existing browser install is supposed to solve/be any better at, but it suddenly becomes an incredible target for any state actors/other large-scale entities who know they're going to want to suppress communication shortly.

Spivak 10y ago
True, but for casual users, simply being able to natively and transparently access .onion sites would be cool even if it didn't have the privacy of the Tor Browser Bundle.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  The increase in Tor traffic would also be hugely useful for users who do depend on Tor. That much more chaff for Eve to have to eliminate.

Snesker 10y ago

This will never happen. There's too much utilitarian purpose in scamming the elderly and ignorant into thinking their web browsing is private when they hit private browsing mode. The cabal of backdoored-by-default hardware will never lose its complete monopoly on normal users. Especially not after a few more years of logging every human-internet and human-computer interaction. Discussing firefox, or anything else, on this website is a petty distraction compared to the real and substantive danger most of humanity and all of 'humanity' faces.

micaksica 10y ago

I agree with this. "Tor Browser Mode" should become the default "Private browsing mode" on Firefox. It seems to me that a lot of uneducated users seem to have the idea that Incognito/Private mode does, somehow, give them more anonymity in a way other than locally. The extra streaming traffic would probably cripple Tor exit nodes in the short run if Mozilla didn't run worldwide fast exits on their own, but it'd be a start in a good direction, IMO. I'm sure someone will come along and tell me that "this isn't what Tor is useful for," but as far as I am concerned Tor has a PR problem. If everyone uses Tor as part of Firefox Private Browsing, a lot, lot more normal people become Tor users, not "extremists" or "dissidents" or "criminals", the headless horsemen of the anonymity apocalypse.

majewsky 10y ago
> It seems to me that a lot of uneducated users seem to have the idea that Incognito/Private mode does, somehow, give them more anonymity in a way other than locally. Well, there is this "tracking protection" thing that they added in FF42 but I don't know how it works (and frankly I don't care because I'm using a tracking blocker anyway).
jrochkind1 10y ago
> if Mozilla didn't run worldwide fast exits on their own If a huge portion of tor traffic is going through exit nodes owned by one organization and presumably deployed on a uniform consistent infrastructure, this becomes a prime target for hackers, state-sponsored or otherwise.
- micaksica 10y ago
  Tor itself is already a prime target for hackers. There are plenty of malicious exit nodes as is; as for nation-states, the cost of entry into polluting the Tor network with your own circuits to probabilistically deanonymize users is low enough as is that you'd be stupid not to do it. By the same logic, torservers.net shouldn't exist, or ipredator's massive exit. Tor has a fair amount of relay bandwidth; Mozilla running exit nodes adds strength to where the bigger bottleneck is. There isn't a lot of personal risk in running middles or guards to the common techie; an exit node with abusive traffic can get your house raided in the United States [1] and Germany makes you responsible for traffic on your IP [2]. They have the legal and personnel resources to be able to deal with abuse complaints from bad actors, and should, for the sake of the network they support. [1] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/seattle-police-raid-home-privacy-activists-who-maintain-tor-anonymity-network-node-1552524 http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/seattle-police-raid-home-privacy-ac... [2] http://www.young-germany.de/topic/live/your-digital-rights-in-germany http://www.young-germany.de/topic/live/your-digital-rights-i...