3 ms·

tl;dr; I have no factual objections to anything you've said, but I object to who you are!

coldtea 10y ago
tl;dr I had many factual objections to what you've said, but I didn't felt like a dis on poor people was really worth a refutation. But if you insist, most people are not profit maximizing automata, nor are they totally economically and emotionally free to follow any whim. They have roots, family ties, people to tend to (old parents, little kids, etc), and don't just blow it all of for the off chance on landing another McDonalds gig or strawberry picking job in another state. We're not talking computer scientists here, for what they offer it's a buyers market, or worse, out there. Tons also live month to month (if that), and couldn't afford the move and relocation, they'd just end up homeless in another state. Those immigrants you mention come either are middle class or upper themselves in their countries (so come to the US with a cushion already + college studies etc) or are from piss poor regions fuelled with crime and desperation, so even a McDonalds gig in the US is an improvement. And even them, usually end up just in the same category as those white poor in the US -- the millions of poor latinos, blacks etc. "Move to find some opportunity in another" is not some general plan for tens of millions of those poor people, nor is global immigration any helpful analogy. It's not that different than saying "Those poor people in South Dakota or Alabama think they have it bad? Look at all those Syrians immigrating to a better life". Which is an insensitive thing to say in the first place, doubly so if those who say it don't share either's problems at the moment.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Ok, so according to you people choose to be poor because they value other things more than wealth. It sounds like you view their consumption choices as merely being a different lifestyle, kind of like me having a tiny amount of living space and being very mobile. So I guess the real reason Silicon Valley isn't "solving" the problem is because there is no problem to solve? I wish someone would tell this to Trump and Bernie! Tons also live month to month (if that), and couldn't afford the move and relocation, they'd just end up homeless in another state. This seems unlikely. Illegal Mexican immigrants have far less, yet don't usually end up homeless.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    >Ok, so according to you people choose to be poor because they value other things more than wealth. Yeah, the same way e.g. some people "choose to starve" because they value their notion of dignity more than e.g. getting paid for sexual services, even if they have the looks and they could always resort to that. People thinking it's just some kind of "choice" really don't understand the problem. First, let's ignore the (important) fact that the supposed "road to riches" by skipping town/state etc is statistically nothing to write home about even for those that do make the choice. Millions of immigrants that didn't do anything for themselves can attest to that, and the same goes for the rural poor going into the city. The real problem is the disproportionate amount of such hard choices imposed upon the poor compared to the cushioned people. For some, that's par for the course of being poor, and goes without saying. I'd say that those can't even see the problem. Cushioned middle/upper middle class/rich people get to value the same things (family, regional ties) just as much or even more, without having to make any sacrifice, just for the sake of (predominantly) being born into such privilege. They play life in easy mode. As Anatole France put it, "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread". (Even worse are the occasional outliers, those who managed to get out of these circumstances -- always a small minority will manage of course -- and attribute it all to their hard work and great choices, and blame the lazy and stupid poor majority for not following on their path). It's not the poor people's fault that they don't try 2x to 10x harder -- in fact tons work harder than any finger pointing, "hard working" middle/upper class person who criticises them. Proud of their 60 and 80 hour work weeks programming or doing some office job? Cute, have them try balancing two shitty manual labor low wage gigs, perhaps plus kids and commuting, and also having nothing much to show for it. Here's how a huge part of the "other half" lives and what they have to put up with, if anyone cares: https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0312626681 https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0... http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate >This seems unlikely. Illegal Mexican immigrants have far less, yet don't usually end up homeless. For a lot of them, that's because they value those things that prevent them from getting rich: family, relatives, etc, so get a support net from that. But even so, from what I can find: "Forty percent of the United States homeless populations are under the age of 18, and Hispanics make up 20 percent of the total homeless population". Or: "African-American and Latino New Yorkers are disproportionately affected by homelessness. Approximately 58 percent of New York City homeless shelter residents are African-American, 31 percent are Latino, 7 percent are white, less than 1 percent are Asian-American, and 3 percent are of unknown race/ethnicity.". http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/ http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-hom... Or: "People of color – particularly African-Americans – are a minority that is particularly overrepresented. According the PBS Homeless Fact and Figures ’07, 41% are non-Hispanic whites (compared to 76% of the general population), 40% are African Americans (compared to 11% of the general population) 11% are Hispanic (compared to 9% of the general population) and 8% percent are Native American (compared to 1% of the general population)." http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/minorities.html http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/minorities.html

tl;dr I had many factual objections to what you've said, but I didn't felt like a dis on poor people was really worth a refutation. But if you insist, most people are not profit maximizing automata, nor are they totally economically and emotionally free to follow any whim. They have roots, family ties, people to tend to (old parents, little kids, etc), and don't just blow it all of for the off chance on landing another McDonalds gig or strawberry picking job in another state. We're not talking computer scientists here, for what they offer it's a buyers market, or worse, out there. Tons also live month to month (if that), and couldn't afford the move and relocation, they'd just end up homeless in another state. Those immigrants you mention come either are middle class or upper themselves in their countries (so come to the US with a cushion already + college studies etc) or are from piss poor regions fuelled with crime and desperation, so even a McDonalds gig in the US is an improvement. And even them, usually end up just in the same category as those white poor in the US -- the millions of poor latinos, blacks etc. "Move to find some opportunity in another" is not some general plan for tens of millions of those poor people, nor is global immigration any helpful analogy. It's not that different than saying "Those poor people in South Dakota or Alabama think they have it bad? Look at all those Syrians immigrating to a better life". Which is an insensitive thing to say in the first place, doubly so if those who say it don't share either's problems at the moment.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Ok, so according to you people choose to be poor because they value other things more than wealth. It sounds like you view their consumption choices as merely being a different lifestyle, kind of like me having a tiny amount of living space and being very mobile. So I guess the real reason Silicon Valley isn't "solving" the problem is because there is no problem to solve? I wish someone would tell this to Trump and Bernie! Tons also live month to month (if that), and couldn't afford the move and relocation, they'd just end up homeless in another state. This seems unlikely. Illegal Mexican immigrants have far less, yet don't usually end up homeless.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Ok, so according to you people choose to be poor because they value other things more than wealth. Yeah, the same way e.g. some people "choose to starve" because they value their notion of dignity more than e.g. getting paid for sexual services, even if they have the looks and they could always resort to that. People thinking it's just some kind of "choice" really don't understand the problem. First, let's ignore the (important) fact that the supposed "road to riches" by skipping town/state etc is statistically nothing to write home about even for those that do make the choice. Millions of immigrants that didn't do anything for themselves can attest to that, and the same goes for the rural poor going into the city. The real problem is the disproportionate amount of such hard choices imposed upon the poor compared to the cushioned people. For some, that's par for the course of being poor, and goes without saying. I'd say that those can't even see the problem. Cushioned middle/upper middle class/rich people get to value the same things (family, regional ties) just as much or even more, without having to make any sacrifice, just for the sake of (predominantly) being born into such privilege. They play life in easy mode. As Anatole France put it, "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread". (Even worse are the occasional outliers, those who managed to get out of these circumstances -- always a small minority will manage of course -- and attribute it all to their hard work and great choices, and blame the lazy and stupid poor majority for not following on their path). It's not the poor people's fault that they don't try 2x to 10x harder -- in fact tons work harder than any finger pointing, "hard working" middle/upper class person who criticises them. Proud of their 60 and 80 hour work weeks programming or doing some office job? Cute, have them try balancing two shitty manual labor low wage gigs, perhaps plus kids and commuting, and also having nothing much to show for it. Here's how a huge part of the "other half" lives and what they have to put up with, if anyone cares: https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0312626681 https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Dimed-Not-Getting-America/dp/0... http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate >This seems unlikely. Illegal Mexican immigrants have far less, yet don't usually end up homeless. For a lot of them, that's because they value those things that prevent them from getting rich: family, relatives, etc, so get a support net from that. But even so, from what I can find: "Forty percent of the United States homeless populations are under the age of 18, and Hispanics make up 20 percent of the total homeless population". Or: "African-American and Latino New Yorkers are disproportionately affected by homelessness. Approximately 58 percent of New York City homeless shelter residents are African-American, 31 percent are Latino, 7 percent are white, less than 1 percent are Asian-American, and 3 percent are of unknown race/ethnicity.". http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/ http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-hom... Or: "People of color – particularly African-Americans – are a minority that is particularly overrepresented. According the PBS Homeless Fact and Figures ’07, 41% are non-Hispanic whites (compared to 76% of the general population), 40% are African Americans (compared to 11% of the general population) 11% are Hispanic (compared to 9% of the general population) and 8% percent are Native American (compared to 1% of the general population)." http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/minorities.html http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/minorities.html