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> you obviously just don't know what you're talking about. I know you just called out all the stuff from my (DP/work camp prisoner) grandmother's house as some

> you obviously just don't know what you're talking about. I know you just called out all the stuff from my (DP/work camp prisoner) grandmother's house as some kind of crypto-genocidal symbols of pro-Fascist hate, which is one of more asinine things I've read this week. And this week involved a lot of news about Donald Trump.

trhway 10y ago
>you just called out all the stuff from my (DP/work camp prisoner) grandmother's house as some kind of crypto-genocidal symbols of pro-Fascist hate your indignation is completely misdirected. It is not me who appropriated all that stuff as symbols of Ukranian nationalistic movement. It is not me who made the Ukranian nationalistic movement a de-facto fascist movement, it is not me who committed all those atrocities and crimes in the name of it, who have been celebrating the "heroes" perpetrators of those atrocities and who have been faithfully trying to follow in the steps of those "heroes" - with the attempt at "pacification" of Russians in Donbass being a such example as recent as just 2 years ago. Don't blame the messenger. You don't agree with that stuff being used as symbols - argue with the article or the original comment author who stated so, argue with "vyshivatniki" in Ukraine. You don't agree with the atrocities and the crimes, past and the current, or with celebrating of those "heroes" - argue with Wikipedia, historians, and leaders of the Ukraine nationalism who rules Ukraine today. Your indignation directed at me is like indignation of a follower of the Hinduism or Buddhism (where "swastika" has been a sacred and auspicious symbol at least for couple thousand years before Hitler) at a person who would say that "swastika" is a symbol of Nazi movement and of related atrocities and hate.
- empthought 10y ago
  Coming from an obvious sympathizer to Putin's Russia, calling the current Ukrainian leadership fascists is like the pot calling the daffodil black. Svoboda is the closest thing to a far-right party in Ukraine and it has but a handful of seats.
  - trhway 10y ago
    >an obvious sympathizer to Putin's Russia why did you say so? I hate Putin's regime, and have always been very critical about Russian state and its people.
    - empthought 10y ago
      You're bringing up Ukrainian atrocities against Poles 70 years ago in a thread about crowns made of flowers and trying to somehow draw a line to current Ukrainian politics and conflict. It's basically straight from the Russian state media propaganda handbook.
      - trhway 10y ago
        again, it wasn't me who brought the current Ukrainian politics and conflict in the thread about crowns made of flowers - read the article and the original top comment in the thread. It is not my fault that the current Ukrainian politics and conflict is due to the current regime celebrating the perpetrators of those atrocities and trying to follow the same policies. And Wikipedia isn't Russian propaganda, well at least i hope so.
        empthought 10y ago
        > the current Ukrainian politics and conflict is due to the current regime celebrating the perpetrators of those atrocities and trying to follow the same policies. This is propaganda pure and simple. There is no one in any position of power in Ukraine celebrating any of these things you have brought up. You are either a troll from Olgino or have been taken in by their garbage.
        trhway 10y ago
        >There is no one in any position of power in Ukraine celebrating any of these things you have brought up. that is one big lie. Until of course you're trying to say that awarding the highest official national title of "Hero" to, building monuments to and naming streets after a person doesn't mean the celebration of the mass atrocities systematically committed by and under command of that person. Imagine how stupid that argument would sound if say Munich would have decided to have a Hitler-strasse today just to celebrate the great autobahn network construction performed by Hitler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Commemoration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Commemoration
- reitanqild 10y ago
  If we should single out one group in Ukraine it should be the one who shot down a civilian airliner using weapons borrowed from Russia, shouldn't it? It seems you almost honestly belive this but to the rest of the world it kind of obvious who are the arsonists in Ukraine.
  - trhway 10y ago
    >who shot down a civilian airliner using weapons borrowed from Russia the Buk used by rebels was an Ukranian Buk captured by rebels on June 29 near Donetsk. It is well known, and the capture was in the news at least 2 weeks before the MH-17. The rest of the world is just too lazy to even check the Internet archive. Rebels were pounded from the air and they used whatever anti-aircraft weapons they could get. They used this Buk to shoot down 2 Ukranian fighters on July 16 (the shotdowns at 6 and 8 km altitude - well above MANPAD reachability - are clearly mentioned in the MH17 Dutch commission report). They shot down MH17 taking it for a military cargo plane - the two unfortunate factors played a role here 1. the MH17 was flying significantly north of the civilian corridor and thus it got into the Buk launcher's radar observation sector which was set up as to look toward typical route of Ukraine military planes approaching the rebel held territories 2. the rebels had only Buk launcher, not the complete full-functional Buk system, specifically they didn't have Buk's big radar vehicle, and the radar on the Buk launcher is limited - has shorter distance, handles only a sector of about 120 degrees, its main purpose is to track the assigned target and guide the missile to it, it isn't that suitable for identification, lacks transponder identification hardware, etc. Ukraine didn't close the airspace for commercial airlines in the war zone even though Ukraine was using military airplanes in that war and those planes were receiving fire back from the ground. Ukraine didn't close the airspace even after loosing Buk batteries to rebels at 2 different military anti-aircraft bases. They didn't close airspace even after loosing 2 fighters on July 16 at the altitudes well above MANPAD ceiling. Why loose all these money the airlines pay for use of the corridor! The MH17 victims relatives has recently filed a case against Ukraine for that in the high court of the EU.
    - Const-me 10y ago
      > was an Ukranian Buk captured by rebels Russian Buk from 53-rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, from Kursk. There were many witnesses on the land, who paid attention, and shared their evidences. In Russia: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/exploring-russias-53rd-brigades-mh17-convoy-with-storymap/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/exp... In Ukraine: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/03/04/8110/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/03/04/811... You just can’t hide movements of something that large in a populated areas. It’s also visible on satellite images: https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/examining-evidence-russias...

trhway 10y ago

>you just called out all the stuff from my (DP/work camp prisoner) grandmother's house as some kind of crypto-genocidal symbols of pro-Fascist hate your indignation is completely misdirected. It is not me who appropriated all that stuff as symbols of Ukranian nationalistic movement. It is not me who made the Ukranian nationalistic movement a de-facto fascist movement, it is not me who committed all those atrocities and crimes in the name of it, who have been celebrating the "heroes" perpetrators of those atrocities and who have been faithfully trying to follow in the steps of those "heroes" - with the attempt at "pacification" of Russians in Donbass being a such example as recent as just 2 years ago. Don't blame the messenger. You don't agree with that stuff being used as symbols - argue with the article or the original comment author who stated so, argue with "vyshivatniki" in Ukraine. You don't agree with the atrocities and the crimes, past and the current, or with celebrating of those "heroes" - argue with Wikipedia, historians, and leaders of the Ukraine nationalism who rules Ukraine today. Your indignation directed at me is like indignation of a follower of the Hinduism or Buddhism (where "swastika" has been a sacred and auspicious symbol at least for couple thousand years before Hitler) at a person who would say that "swastika" is a symbol of Nazi movement and of related atrocities and hate.

empthought 10y ago
Coming from an obvious sympathizer to Putin's Russia, calling the current Ukrainian leadership fascists is like the pot calling the daffodil black. Svoboda is the closest thing to a far-right party in Ukraine and it has but a handful of seats.
- trhway 10y ago
  >an obvious sympathizer to Putin's Russia why did you say so? I hate Putin's regime, and have always been very critical about Russian state and its people.
  - empthought 10y ago
    You're bringing up Ukrainian atrocities against Poles 70 years ago in a thread about crowns made of flowers and trying to somehow draw a line to current Ukrainian politics and conflict. It's basically straight from the Russian state media propaganda handbook.
    - trhway 10y ago
      again, it wasn't me who brought the current Ukrainian politics and conflict in the thread about crowns made of flowers - read the article and the original top comment in the thread. It is not my fault that the current Ukrainian politics and conflict is due to the current regime celebrating the perpetrators of those atrocities and trying to follow the same policies. And Wikipedia isn't Russian propaganda, well at least i hope so.
      - empthought 10y ago
        > the current Ukrainian politics and conflict is due to the current regime celebrating the perpetrators of those atrocities and trying to follow the same policies. This is propaganda pure and simple. There is no one in any position of power in Ukraine celebrating any of these things you have brought up. You are either a troll from Olgino or have been taken in by their garbage.
        trhway 10y ago
        >There is no one in any position of power in Ukraine celebrating any of these things you have brought up. that is one big lie. Until of course you're trying to say that awarding the highest official national title of "Hero" to, building monuments to and naming streets after a person doesn't mean the celebration of the mass atrocities systematically committed by and under command of that person. Imagine how stupid that argument would sound if say Munich would have decided to have a Hitler-strasse today just to celebrate the great autobahn network construction performed by Hitler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Commemoration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera#Commemoration
reitanqild 10y ago
If we should single out one group in Ukraine it should be the one who shot down a civilian airliner using weapons borrowed from Russia, shouldn't it? It seems you almost honestly belive this but to the rest of the world it kind of obvious who are the arsonists in Ukraine.
- trhway 10y ago
  >who shot down a civilian airliner using weapons borrowed from Russia the Buk used by rebels was an Ukranian Buk captured by rebels on June 29 near Donetsk. It is well known, and the capture was in the news at least 2 weeks before the MH-17. The rest of the world is just too lazy to even check the Internet archive. Rebels were pounded from the air and they used whatever anti-aircraft weapons they could get. They used this Buk to shoot down 2 Ukranian fighters on July 16 (the shotdowns at 6 and 8 km altitude - well above MANPAD reachability - are clearly mentioned in the MH17 Dutch commission report). They shot down MH17 taking it for a military cargo plane - the two unfortunate factors played a role here 1. the MH17 was flying significantly north of the civilian corridor and thus it got into the Buk launcher's radar observation sector which was set up as to look toward typical route of Ukraine military planes approaching the rebel held territories 2. the rebels had only Buk launcher, not the complete full-functional Buk system, specifically they didn't have Buk's big radar vehicle, and the radar on the Buk launcher is limited - has shorter distance, handles only a sector of about 120 degrees, its main purpose is to track the assigned target and guide the missile to it, it isn't that suitable for identification, lacks transponder identification hardware, etc. Ukraine didn't close the airspace for commercial airlines in the war zone even though Ukraine was using military airplanes in that war and those planes were receiving fire back from the ground. Ukraine didn't close the airspace even after loosing Buk batteries to rebels at 2 different military anti-aircraft bases. They didn't close airspace even after loosing 2 fighters on July 16 at the altitudes well above MANPAD ceiling. Why loose all these money the airlines pay for use of the corridor! The MH17 victims relatives has recently filed a case against Ukraine for that in the high court of the EU.
  - Const-me 10y ago
    > was an Ukranian Buk captured by rebels Russian Buk from 53-rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, from Kursk. There were many witnesses on the land, who paid attention, and shared their evidences. In Russia: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/exploring-russias-53rd-brigades-mh17-convoy-with-storymap/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/exp... In Ukraine: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/03/04/8110/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/03/04/811... You just can’t hide movements of something that large in a populated areas. It’s also visible on satellite images: https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/examining-evidence-russias-involvement-malaysia-airlines-crash https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/examining-evidence-russias...