3 ms·

I get what you're saying, but it seems pretty dictatorial. Would you apply it to startup founds? Lone inventors tinkering in their basements? Musicians pract

by dasmoth 10y ago

I get what you're saying, but it seems pretty dictatorial. Would you apply it to startup founds? Lone inventors tinkering in their basements? Musicians practising to be the best? It would seem to exclude trades like "work hard for 10 years with a reasonable hope of stashing way enough to retire", which are probably rational for some (60 hours/week of wage labour may be bad, but 40 isn't exactly wonderful either).

rwallace 10y ago
If you think a yes answer is unreasonable, bear in mind that you actually get less done in a 60-hour week than a 40-hour one (maybe not in the first week, but in the second and subsequent ones), so discouraging it in the three cases you mention would still help the people involved. Of course, if you're working alone in your basement, you're not obliged to tell anyone how many hours you work, let alone take orders from anyone on the matter, but it still shouldn't be considered socially acceptable to boast of long hours. As for the last, the trade is only that way because employers with high-paying jobs can get away with gratuitous abuse of their employees, and that's precisely the state of affairs we need to put an end to.
- dasmoth 10y ago
  >>> bear in mind that you actually get less done in a 60-hour week than a 40-hour one On aggregate, sure (and for a lot of people in a lot of scenarios, the actual threshold is probably lower still). But there are outliers here -- particularly when we're talking about highly-driven people doing things they really want to do -- and I'd be nervous about legislating here.
  - rwallace 10y ago
    Well, I only advocate legislating a maximum 40-hour (or better yet, 30-hour) week for employees. If you're self-employed and you think you're an outlier? You're probably mistaken. Chronic fatigue is like being drunk; it impairs your judgment in such a way that you can't judge the degree of impairment. But if you still think you're an outlier? I won't lift a finger to stop you, but please keep quiet about it and refrain from poisoning the noosphere for everyone else.
    - graeme 10y ago
      I think it may depend on a few factors. I don't think I can even manage a 40 hour week productively now, as my other obligations have grown. Whereas, in the early years I could work much longer without reurcussion. This is fairly measurable, as I was writing educational materials and people say the quality was good then. One month I went to Cuba to write, and didn't have to cook, clean or do errands. I also didn't socialize much, but had daily contact with people in my house. I worked much longer weeks, but felt less stress. I also had daily sun, exercise, and healthy food. The second situation wasn't sustainable for more than 1.5 years, but did work well enough. The 3rd situation also isn't sustainable long run, and can be difficult to setup in most circumstances. Just pointing that out to say that the 40 hour limit can be affected by other factors. Right now I want to rearrange my non-work commitments to allow more work time, and also reduce the most mundane work tasks. Critically, when I was working longer, I was just writing. Almost no administrative work.

by dasmoth 10y ago

rwallace 10y ago

If you think a yes answer is unreasonable, bear in mind that you actually get less done in a 60-hour week than a 40-hour one (maybe not in the first week, but in the second and subsequent ones), so discouraging it in the three cases you mention would still help the people involved. Of course, if you're working alone in your basement, you're not obliged to tell anyone how many hours you work, let alone take orders from anyone on the matter, but it still shouldn't be considered socially acceptable to boast of long hours. As for the last, the trade is only that way because employers with high-paying jobs can get away with gratuitous abuse of their employees, and that's precisely the state of affairs we need to put an end to.

dasmoth 10y ago
>>> bear in mind that you actually get less done in a 60-hour week than a 40-hour one On aggregate, sure (and for a lot of people in a lot of scenarios, the actual threshold is probably lower still). But there are outliers here -- particularly when we're talking about highly-driven people doing things they really want to do -- and I'd be nervous about legislating here.
- rwallace 10y ago
  Well, I only advocate legislating a maximum 40-hour (or better yet, 30-hour) week for employees. If you're self-employed and you think you're an outlier? You're probably mistaken. Chronic fatigue is like being drunk; it impairs your judgment in such a way that you can't judge the degree of impairment. But if you still think you're an outlier? I won't lift a finger to stop you, but please keep quiet about it and refrain from poisoning the noosphere for everyone else.
  - graeme 10y ago
    I think it may depend on a few factors. I don't think I can even manage a 40 hour week productively now, as my other obligations have grown. Whereas, in the early years I could work much longer without reurcussion. This is fairly measurable, as I was writing educational materials and people say the quality was good then. One month I went to Cuba to write, and didn't have to cook, clean or do errands. I also didn't socialize much, but had daily contact with people in my house. I worked much longer weeks, but felt less stress. I also had daily sun, exercise, and healthy food. The second situation wasn't sustainable for more than 1.5 years, but did work well enough. The 3rd situation also isn't sustainable long run, and can be difficult to setup in most circumstances. Just pointing that out to say that the 40 hour limit can be affected by other factors. Right now I want to rearrange my non-work commitments to allow more work time, and also reduce the most mundane work tasks. Critically, when I was working longer, I was just writing. Almost no administrative work.