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I'm not at all dismissing your point, but there are a few things about India which make it a special case: 1. India was one of the greatest cultural and intell

I'm not at all dismissing your point, but there are a few things about India which make it a special case: 1. India was one of the greatest cultural and intellectual centers of the world before interference from foreign western nations. I don't remember who it was -- it might've been Robert Cowley? -- but one of the historians I read recently made the point that if a culture develops a certain level of sophistication, it will tend to try to return to at least that level again in the future. That is, civilizations have a "cultural memory", and India in particular would have strongly benefited from this effect. 2. Post-colonial Indian government is modeled in significant portions on parliamentary structures, especially British ones. I think it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss the influence of British government in India. 3. Mahatma Gandhi. India was fortunate to have a cultural leader of his magnitude; he was an amazing individual, and I don't think it's hard to imagine a very different modern India without him. 4. You might want to edit some portions of the Wikipedia article on India; it tries to give the impression that there has been more violence and trouble since the end of colonial rule. I don't know enough Indian history to cite it one way or the other, but if you think the opposite is the case -- and you can support it -- then it would be nice for WP to get updated.

plinkplonk 17y ago
"You might want to edit some portions of the Wikipedia article on India; it tries to give the impression that there has been more violence and trouble since the end of colonial rule. " This is the WIkipedia link on post Independence India. http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_India http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_India Which part gives you the idea that there was more violence in India than under British rule? There was massive violence just after Partition (partly during British rule and partly after Independence). The resulting hostility with Pakistan has given us three wars and a couple of insurgencies. As the world is beginning to find out these days, Pakistan is a haven for all kinds of interesting people and ideologies. Sure there was and is violence (of all kinds) in India after Independence. No one claims that all parts of India were or are oases of peace and calm all the time. But they weren't under British rule either! India is a very diverse and unevenly developed country. When violence happens the government (like all governments elsewhere) tamps it down. Also I am not dismissing the influence of British institutions like Parliament. I am disputing the idea that we are worse off today than we were under British rule (as lionhearted tried to claim, based on some poring over maps or whatever). This is a completely laughable claim, to anyone who lives here. If India is a "special case" for whatever reasons, say so. Don't make ridiculous claims (like lionhearted did) that we "declined" since independence. You have no idea. Ask someone who lives in India what they think of this idea.
- akgerber 17y ago
  Moreover, plenty of countries never colonized by Britain have adopted the parliamentary system: Japan, France, German, Russia, Spain, etc. Indeed, it is pretty much the default system of democratic government adopted by any democratizing nation.
- thaumaturgy 17y ago
  I was referring to the last paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India#History , and I was being genuine: that paragraph reads as though certain issues arose specifically after independence, and if that's not the case at all, I would appreciate it if someone knowledgeable on the subject would edit the article.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "That paragraph reads as though certain issues arose specifically after independence," Every country has problems after independence. Or any given moment in its history for that matter. That is how history moves forward. It isn't as if Independence brings eternal peace and calm forever. Let us take America. After independence from the British, all kinds of problems "arose". They continued enslaving people who had done them no harm, fought a murderous civil war over that issue, took over parts of Mexico, fought wars with the British, Mexicans, Spaniards, Germans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Iraqis and the Afghans. They had race riots in plenty. Asassinations of presidents and peaceful demonstrators. Terrorist attacks. Now they have a failing state on the southern border and drug wars spilling over. Yadda Yadda. None of which shows that independence from the British was a bad idea or that America has "declined" since then.
    - thaumaturgy 17y ago
      I am exhausting my somewhat notoriously short supply of patience, so please excuse the following outburst: Why are you trying so goddamned hard to argue with me? All I've -- politely -- asked, for fuck's sake, is if you would mind contributing to a Wikipedia article on the subject! I'm not even disagreeing with you! And I cannot, if my life depended on it, fathom why you would write some counter-examples as a reply to my one sentence clarifying the article in question and my request. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

plinkplonk 17y ago

"You might want to edit some portions of the Wikipedia article on India; it tries to give the impression that there has been more violence and trouble since the end of colonial rule. " This is the WIkipedia link on post Independence India. http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_India http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_India Which part gives you the idea that there was more violence in India than under British rule? There was massive violence just after Partition (partly during British rule and partly after Independence). The resulting hostility with Pakistan has given us three wars and a couple of insurgencies. As the world is beginning to find out these days, Pakistan is a haven for all kinds of interesting people and ideologies. Sure there was and is violence (of all kinds) in India after Independence. No one claims that all parts of India were or are oases of peace and calm all the time. But they weren't under British rule either! India is a very diverse and unevenly developed country. When violence happens the government (like all governments elsewhere) tamps it down. Also I am not dismissing the influence of British institutions like Parliament. I am disputing the idea that we are worse off today than we were under British rule (as lionhearted tried to claim, based on some poring over maps or whatever). This is a completely laughable claim, to anyone who lives here. If India is a "special case" for whatever reasons, say so. Don't make ridiculous claims (like lionhearted did) that we "declined" since independence. You have no idea. Ask someone who lives in India what they think of this idea.

akgerber 17y ago
Moreover, plenty of countries never colonized by Britain have adopted the parliamentary system: Japan, France, German, Russia, Spain, etc. Indeed, it is pretty much the default system of democratic government adopted by any democratizing nation.
thaumaturgy 17y ago
I was referring to the last paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India#History , and I was being genuine: that paragraph reads as though certain issues arose specifically after independence, and if that's not the case at all, I would appreciate it if someone knowledgeable on the subject would edit the article.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "That paragraph reads as though certain issues arose specifically after independence," Every country has problems after independence. Or any given moment in its history for that matter. That is how history moves forward. It isn't as if Independence brings eternal peace and calm forever. Let us take America. After independence from the British, all kinds of problems "arose". They continued enslaving people who had done them no harm, fought a murderous civil war over that issue, took over parts of Mexico, fought wars with the British, Mexicans, Spaniards, Germans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Iraqis and the Afghans. They had race riots in plenty. Asassinations of presidents and peaceful demonstrators. Terrorist attacks. Now they have a failing state on the southern border and drug wars spilling over. Yadda Yadda. None of which shows that independence from the British was a bad idea or that America has "declined" since then.
  - thaumaturgy 17y ago
    I am exhausting my somewhat notoriously short supply of patience, so please excuse the following outburst: Why are you trying so goddamned hard to argue with me? All I've -- politely -- asked, for fuck's sake, is if you would mind contributing to a Wikipedia article on the subject! I'm not even disagreeing with you! And I cannot, if my life depended on it, fathom why you would write some counter-examples as a reply to my one sentence clarifying the article in question and my request. Are you being deliberately obtuse?