7 ms·

Show HN: Twincl – A New Attempt at “Rich Forum”

45 points by arthurtw 10y ago

daveloyall 10y ago
> To post or comment on Twincl site, just login with a > verified Facebook account. Alternatively, you may register > a new Twincl account, and subscribe to the membership with > a minimal fee. (Our point is to make the account less > disposable, which we believe is a key to pleasant community > experiences.) $5/year or $2/three months. If you live forever, that's an infinite amount of money. cf. metafilter, which charges $5 one time to prevent disposable accounts.
- arthurtw 10y ago
  You can use a verified Facebook account to join Twincl site for free. Ideally, we should use our own SMS verification process to prevent disposable accounts - maybe when we have money. Since Facebook does a decent job of fraud account prevention, we leverage their work for now. Thanks for your comment. We'll take that into account.
  - daveloyall 10y ago
    I fully understand your desire to use FB to vet user identities. I like the idea of twincl. Keep up the good work! The overlap between the set of people that like twincl and the set of people that don't like facebook may be large. You know what accounts I don't mind linking? These: * https://gitlab.com/u/sebboh * https://github.com/daveloyall/ * https://stackexchange.com/users/2248650/daveloyall * https://plus.google.com/113507487161654826344 ...Not that I'm a fan of G+, but I am happy to use that google account identity to sign into other services. It's because that google account identity is tied to a work email account, too... You know what doesn't go on there? What I do on the weekends. That ends up on facebook even if I don't put it there... So leave that account alone.
    - daveloyall 10y ago
      It's worth noting that I am permitted more than one Google account, but not more than one Facebook account. ...There MAY be some rule about not having more than one G+ account, right? But, I don't really use that service. It was only included here because it's the only "profile" page I know of for that account.
      - arthurtw 10y ago
        Exactly. That's why we did not use Google identity service. Google accounts are disposable, while Facebook enforces one-account-per-person policy.
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        > Google accounts are disposable, while Facebook enforces one-account-per-person policy. Facebook might claim to, but they don't do much of a job of it.
        arthurtw 10y ago
        At least you must be careful when using multiple Facebook accounts from the same computer. It might cause your main Facebook account locked, and take you a while to have Facebook unlock it for you.
        fweespeech 10y ago
        > Exactly. That's why we did not use Google identity service. Google accounts are disposable, while Facebook enforces one-account-per-person policy. Facebook fails hilariously at enforcement of this.
        daveloyall 10y ago
        Weird. I don't know a solution. It remains true that I refuse to use my Facebook account on the public internet. For the same reason that I don't 'friend' the whole internet. :) Anyway, check if these accounts https://www.facebook.com/whitehat/accounts/ https://www.facebook.com/whitehat/accounts/ can log into your service. Cheers!
- pjc50 10y ago
  You might live forever, but few social network websites do.
anti_dang 10y ago
> (Our point is to make the account less disposable, which we believe is a key to pleasant community experiences.) You mean correlate people for ad-revenue? Sell their personal information to companies they don't do business with? Collect as much stylometric and idiosyncratic information about them as possible, so that advertisers can target them more efficiently? If you're going to try and hustle people, AT LEAST try and be sneaky about it.
blakeyrat 10y ago
> Although rich, interactive contents can be made with HTML5/CSS/JavaScript technologies, most Internet users do not possess related programming skills. Great! Finally someone in the open source forum community designing a UI for the average user! > On twincl.com, a piece of rich content (which we called a twinclet, pronounced as “twink-lit”) is written with a Markdown fenced code block. And... they've failed right out of the gate. Face-down in the dirt. I will never understand the obsession some developers have with Markdown.
- arthurtw 10y ago
  Maybe you are right. But Reddit uses Markdown, too, and people seem OK with that? Most redditors are not developers.
  - blakeyrat 10y ago
    People seem ok with a lot of awful things. I don't see that as an argument for Markdown. The question is: has Reddit (or other Markdown users) actually studied Markdown's usability? Even a basic comparative study against a WYSIWYG equivalent? It seems like "techy" people just kind of assume Markdown is great and easy and awesome without ever bothering to actually make any effort to question that assumption. That's really the part that bugs me most. And the entire pitch of Markdown is that you can style your text the way you did back when you were using text-only stuff. Ok. So _this should be underlined, then_. And /this should be in italics, right?/ And naturally this is boldfaced. Oh wait. Markdown is ZERO FOR THREE. (Strangely, Markdown doesn't even have underline. Go figure. It's not even remotely close to feature-parity with the WYSIWYG textboxes we were all using on the web in 2008.)
    - fizzbatter 10y ago
      I'm quite confused with a lot of your dislike for Markdown. I have a reverse question, what is better than Markdown in your mind? I'm starting a project that is heavily based around text, and for simplicity i just wanted plain text. Ie, i have no editor for the project. So for markup, i need something. What do you feel is the right markup language? Personally i feel Markdown is easiest markup language i've found. Compared to some, it's quite intuitive. Combined with the fact that it is becoming quite prominent means users are also learning it. The only downfall with Markdown in my mind is a lack of a standard, but i think that's being worked on (there are some attempts at that, i believe). Anyway.. i would really appreciate your feedback, if you feel there are better pure text Markup languages :)
CM30 10y ago
It's an interesting concept, but what's stopping people from making this as a plugin for any other forum script? Because nothing in the page seems like it'd be hard to replicate for a good developer (read, someone who's likely coding add ons for existing platforms). Seems like it'd be best just to wait for a version for my existing forum script. Or get someone to program one. The use of markdown is questionable too. As mentioned, normal users find it somewhat awkward. Might work much better with a button/modal driven system to set up the quiz or Tic Tac Toe game... To post or comment on Twincl site, just login with a verified Facebook account. Alternatively, you may register a new Twincl account, and subscribe to the membership with a minimal fee. (Our point is to make the account less disposable, which we believe is a key to pleasant community experiences.) And you're gonna struggle here too. Many people who use forums do not care for Facebook. They especially do not care for trying to tie every single account to an identity with their real name (and likely photo) attached to it. This is especially true of less 'savoury' subjects, which are some of the subject areas that forums can work really well for. A forum on say, psychological issues or relationship problems is pretty much a non starter with this script. As is any forum in a legally grey area. Or heck, any forum where you just want a different username for whatever reason or don't want the staff/members to know every little thing about you. Or any forum where themed usernames are a big part of the community. No one's going to pay $5 a year to call themselves say, Mario. Or Master Chief. Or Pikachu. So it seems like the registration system basically makes it a non starter for any forum where people want some anonymity/privacy, any forum about a fictional universe or series (or where role playing is a thing) or any forum relating to anything remotely illicit or legally grey. It has some interesting concepts, but the membership stuff is a problem and the UI stuff seems like it's both a tad complicated and easily copyable by your competitors.
- arthurtw 10y ago
  Forum anonymity (or more precisely, disposable account) is the source of moderation pain and the reason of suboptimal forum content quality. It's one of the main issues I want to address from day 1. If FB account puts a lot of people off, I may consider adopting SMS verification sooner, or change the yearly subscription to a one-time small fee. It seems Markdown editing is a red flag for broader adoption. I've thought about a dual approach before: allow casual users to edit with GUI, and provide the Markdown editing capability for pro users. I do not have a fool-proof way to prevent plugin copying. If somehow it's widely copied, it's not a bad thing (to most people), too.

45 points by arthurtw 10y ago

> To post or comment on Twincl site, just login with a > verified Facebook account. Alternatively, you may register > a new Twincl account, and subscribe to the membership with > a minimal fee. (Our point is to make the account less > disposable, which we believe is a key to pleasant community > experiences.) $5/year or $2/three months. If you live forever, that's an infinite amount of money. cf. metafilter, which charges $5 one time to prevent disposable accounts.

arthurtw 10y ago
You can use a verified Facebook account to join Twincl site for free. Ideally, we should use our own SMS verification process to prevent disposable accounts - maybe when we have money. Since Facebook does a decent job of fraud account prevention, we leverage their work for now. Thanks for your comment. We'll take that into account.
- daveloyall 10y ago
  I fully understand your desire to use FB to vet user identities. I like the idea of twincl. Keep up the good work! The overlap between the set of people that like twincl and the set of people that don't like facebook may be large. You know what accounts I don't mind linking? These: * https://gitlab.com/u/sebboh * https://github.com/daveloyall/ * https://stackexchange.com/users/2248650/daveloyall * https://plus.google.com/113507487161654826344 ...Not that I'm a fan of G+, but I am happy to use that google account identity to sign into other services. It's because that google account identity is tied to a work email account, too... You know what doesn't go on there? What I do on the weekends. That ends up on facebook even if I don't put it there... So leave that account alone.
  - daveloyall 10y ago
    It's worth noting that I am permitted more than one Google account, but not more than one Facebook account. ...There MAY be some rule about not having more than one G+ account, right? But, I don't really use that service. It was only included here because it's the only "profile" page I know of for that account.
    - arthurtw 10y ago
      Exactly. That's why we did not use Google identity service. Google accounts are disposable, while Facebook enforces one-account-per-person policy.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > Google accounts are disposable, while Facebook enforces one-account-per-person policy. Facebook might claim to, but they don't do much of a job of it.
        arthurtw 10y ago
        At least you must be careful when using multiple Facebook accounts from the same computer. It might cause your main Facebook account locked, and take you a while to have Facebook unlock it for you.
      - fweespeech 10y ago
        > Exactly. That's why we did not use Google identity service. Google accounts are disposable, while Facebook enforces one-account-per-person policy. Facebook fails hilariously at enforcement of this.
      - daveloyall 10y ago
        Weird. I don't know a solution. It remains true that I refuse to use my Facebook account on the public internet. For the same reason that I don't 'friend' the whole internet. :) Anyway, check if these accounts https://www.facebook.com/whitehat/accounts/ https://www.facebook.com/whitehat/accounts/ can log into your service. Cheers!
pjc50 10y ago
You might live forever, but few social network websites do.

anti_dang 10y ago

> (Our point is to make the account less disposable, which we believe is a key to pleasant community experiences.) You mean correlate people for ad-revenue? Sell their personal information to companies they don't do business with? Collect as much stylometric and idiosyncratic information about them as possible, so that advertisers can target them more efficiently? If you're going to try and hustle people, AT LEAST try and be sneaky about it.

blakeyrat 10y ago

> Although rich, interactive contents can be made with HTML5/CSS/JavaScript technologies, most Internet users do not possess related programming skills. Great! Finally someone in the open source forum community designing a UI for the average user! > On twincl.com, a piece of rich content (which we called a twinclet, pronounced as “twink-lit”) is written with a Markdown fenced code block. And... they've failed right out of the gate. Face-down in the dirt. I will never understand the obsession some developers have with Markdown.

arthurtw 10y ago
Maybe you are right. But Reddit uses Markdown, too, and people seem OK with that? Most redditors are not developers.
- blakeyrat 10y ago
  People seem ok with a lot of awful things. I don't see that as an argument for Markdown. The question is: has Reddit (or other Markdown users) actually studied Markdown's usability? Even a basic comparative study against a WYSIWYG equivalent? It seems like "techy" people just kind of assume Markdown is great and easy and awesome without ever bothering to actually make any effort to question that assumption. That's really the part that bugs me most. And the entire pitch of Markdown is that you can style your text the way you did back when you were using text-only stuff. Ok. So _this should be underlined, then_. And /this should be in italics, right?/ And naturally this is boldfaced. Oh wait. Markdown is ZERO FOR THREE. (Strangely, Markdown doesn't even have underline. Go figure. It's not even remotely close to feature-parity with the WYSIWYG textboxes we were all using on the web in 2008.)
  - fizzbatter 10y ago
    I'm quite confused with a lot of your dislike for Markdown. I have a reverse question, what is better than Markdown in your mind? I'm starting a project that is heavily based around text, and for simplicity i just wanted plain text. Ie, i have no editor for the project. So for markup, i need something. What do you feel is the right markup language? Personally i feel Markdown is easiest markup language i've found. Compared to some, it's quite intuitive. Combined with the fact that it is becoming quite prominent means users are also learning it. The only downfall with Markdown in my mind is a lack of a standard, but i think that's being worked on (there are some attempts at that, i believe). Anyway.. i would really appreciate your feedback, if you feel there are better pure text Markup languages :)

CM30 10y ago

It's an interesting concept, but what's stopping people from making this as a plugin for any other forum script? Because nothing in the page seems like it'd be hard to replicate for a good developer (read, someone who's likely coding add ons for existing platforms). Seems like it'd be best just to wait for a version for my existing forum script. Or get someone to program one. The use of markdown is questionable too. As mentioned, normal users find it somewhat awkward. Might work much better with a button/modal driven system to set up the quiz or Tic Tac Toe game... To post or comment on Twincl site, just login with a verified Facebook account. Alternatively, you may register a new Twincl account, and subscribe to the membership with a minimal fee. (Our point is to make the account less disposable, which we believe is a key to pleasant community experiences.) And you're gonna struggle here too. Many people who use forums do not care for Facebook. They especially do not care for trying to tie every single account to an identity with their real name (and likely photo) attached to it. This is especially true of less 'savoury' subjects, which are some of the subject areas that forums can work really well for. A forum on say, psychological issues or relationship problems is pretty much a non starter with this script. As is any forum in a legally grey area. Or heck, any forum where you just want a different username for whatever reason or don't want the staff/members to know every little thing about you. Or any forum where themed usernames are a big part of the community. No one's going to pay $5 a year to call themselves say, Mario. Or Master Chief. Or Pikachu. So it seems like the registration system basically makes it a non starter for any forum where people want some anonymity/privacy, any forum about a fictional universe or series (or where role playing is a thing) or any forum relating to anything remotely illicit or legally grey. It has some interesting concepts, but the membership stuff is a problem and the UI stuff seems like it's both a tad complicated and easily copyable by your competitors.

arthurtw 10y ago
Forum anonymity (or more precisely, disposable account) is the source of moderation pain and the reason of suboptimal forum content quality. It's one of the main issues I want to address from day 1. If FB account puts a lot of people off, I may consider adopting SMS verification sooner, or change the yearly subscription to a one-time small fee. It seems Markdown editing is a red flag for broader adoption. I've thought about a dual approach before: allow casual users to edit with GUI, and provide the Markdown editing capability for pro users. I do not have a fool-proof way to prevent plugin copying. If somehow it's widely copied, it's not a bad thing (to most people), too.