6 ms·

Brains of overweight people look ten years older than those of lean peers

btilly 10y ago
Given that most research findings are false (see http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jou... for confirmation), I'm going to need to see replication of this study before I believe it one way or the other.
reasonattlm 10y ago
If you look at previous research on exercise, inflammation, and brain volume: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroscience.2014.05.005 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroscience.2014.05.005 and the mountain of evidence showing that excess visceral fat tissue produces greater levels of chronic inflammation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437966/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437966/ Then it seems that inflammation would be the first place to start looking for mechanisms linking weight with white matter volume. Certainly more visceral fat is associated with higher risk of all of the common forms of dementia, and most age-related conditions are sped up in their progression by inflammation.
DenisM 10y ago
Assuming observations are statistically sound... Explanation 1: being overweight leads to brain deficiency. Explanation 2: brain deficiency leads to being overweight. Explanation 3: a hidden variable, such as excessive blood sugar or nutrient deficiency, lead to both. Explanation 4: there is no brain deficiency since there is no cognitive impact. The article states as much, which is very refreshing to see in a mainstream paper.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  Explanation 5: People who are in shape are more likely to be active and exercise regularly, which have very noticeable benefits on the brain.
  - hx87 10y ago
    That would be a subset of Explanation 3.
- will_brown 10y ago
  >a hidden variable, such as excessive blood sugar Well we do know that eating a lot of sugar increases insulin production and insulin enlarges cells. I am not sure about the whole causation/correlation part of it, but for example with increased insulin production, fat cells become larger and their will be a greater likelihood of obesity even in skinny people. Moreover, I understand it is common for people with high insulin levels to have enlarged organs. It is an outrageous theory, but maybe the difference in the brain is simply cell size due to insulin since that might affect appearance but not function.
dualogy 10y ago
> Brains of overweight people look ten years older So, wiser?
- rarec 10y ago
  Age doesn't always correlate to wisdom.
  - pc86 10y ago
    And it correlates even less to people whose initial reaction to any discussion of age is "BUT WISDOM"
- mbillie1 10y ago
  More likely closer to dementia, alzheimer's disease, etc.
  - rikkus 10y ago
    Ironically, this is linked to from the side of the article: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/10/underweight-people-face-significantly-higher-risk-of-dementia-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/10/underweight-...
deskamess 10y ago
It does not seem to affect cognitive ability (per the article). However I am curious if it is reversible. If you lose weight and get back to 'normal', does the brain layout look normal [for that given age group]?
- dspillett 10y ago
  > It does not seem to affect cognitive ability Is that the case long term though? It would be interesting to study the progression of people over the next decade or few to see if it seems to speed up the onset of age related dementia or increase susceptibility to other conditions and illnesses.
- TearsInTheRain 10y ago
  Also what about long term affects? Maybe it doesn't affect my cognitive ability now, but will it make me more susceptible to dementia?
- UlyssesSKrunk 10y ago
  I'd be interested in seeing if the effect is continuous or happens more at certain ages. Like take a group of people who are obese and say in there 40s, half were obese since they were children, and half became obese after 25 or so. See if there is any difference in brain development if the person was obese while they were still developing. Not sure how you would account for effects of just being obese longer in general tho.
mpg33 10y ago
Well imagine the brain loses out over nutrients/resources in an obese person more so than a smaller person...
suprathreshold 10y ago
In reading the paper, I appreciate the statistical efforts to adjust for age differences between the groups to make their claim, but at least optically it doesn't help that the average age of each cohort was already 10 years different. Lean group M = 48 yrs SD = 16; Overweight M = 57 years SD = 17; Obese M = 61 years SD = 16. The latter two groups were combined for analysis. Is it still contentious to use the BMI to define these groups? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1062684...
- bargl 10y ago
  Doesn't BMI that uses electrical current to check for fat percentage in body negate the conetentiousness of BMI? I ask because I thought that was the case but now I'm not so sure.
  - jaegerpicker 10y ago
    There is no BMI measurement that use's electrical current. That's a body fat index which is very different and much more precise. BMI is a very poor and ultimately very hard to justify formula that only takes into account weight/height sorted by gender. Things like muscle index and body frame are completely ignored and often lead to very poor BMI's for people who shouldn't have them.
    - suprathreshold 10y ago
      Maybe bargl means Bioelectric Impedance Analysis? A cursory internet search also indicates BIA is suspect as a one-time measure.
      - bargl 10y ago
        OK so I have this and I thought that the BMI it computed was based on tracking the fat to everything else based on BIA. But I may be way off here. https://www.fitbit.com/aria https://www.fitbit.com/aria I see that Fitbit tracks this as BodyFat % not BMI. Not sure if that's accurate.
sickbeard 10y ago
So we're going by looks now?
swehner 10y ago
A ten-year-old can be obese. An 80-year-old can be obese. I'm not sure what it says about the corresponding "lean peer" when adding ten years to these ages.
- swehner 10y ago
  The downvoting at Hacker News is often amusing.
gtrubetskoy 10y ago
There is more and more agreement that obesity, diabetes, hypertension, heart disease and dementia are all in the end manifestations of various forms of metabolic issues, most prevalent of which is (frequently undiagnosed) insulin resistance, which, in turn is the result of high sugar consumption coupled with inflammation (from consuming all kinds of strange substances like food coloring and artificial sweeteners). Our bodies are not very well adapted for continously running on sugar, but ever since early 19th century when sugar became abundant, that's what we've been doing, especially the developed countries.
- gruez 10y ago
  >coupled with inflammation (from consuming all kinds of strange substances like food coloring and artificial sweeteners) Citation?
  - gtrubetskoy 10y ago
    > > coupled with inflammation (from consuming all kinds of strange substances like food coloring and artificial sweeteners) > Citation? Immune reactivity to food coloring: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25599186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25599186
- s_q_b 10y ago
  >There is more and more agreement that obesity, diabetes, hypertension, heart disease and dementia are all in the end manifestations of various forms of metabolic issues, most prevalent of which is (frequently undiagnosed) insulin resistance Citation needed.
  - gtrubetskoy 10y ago
    > Citation needed. You are confusing HN with wikipedia. ;) On a serious note - I purposely avoided including links because this is such a big subject (and neglected to mention that in my post). Just google for it, draw your own conclusions.
AWildDHHAppears 10y ago
Another question is why does "society" honor and accept Obesity as a lifestyle choice, when its openly critical of tobacco addicts and heroin addicts? What's the difference?
- Chris2048 10y ago
  It doesn't, but a vocal community are pushing this idea.
- patorjk 10y ago
  I don't think the US weight loss market would be so large if society honored and accepted obesity ($64 billion in 2014 was one number I saw). There's certainly people who push for acceptance, but I've never gotten the feeling that it's the overwhelming sentiment.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  It's widely seen as less of a simple choice to become obese, as it is to take up smoking for one thing. Presumably if you met someone who'd been regularly given cigarettes since they were toddlers, you would have a certain degree of sympathy for their issues as adults. There is also the simple fact that abstinence from tobacco is simple, and easy, and it works for everyone who doesn't choose to smoke. Most people don't attempt to have a "moderate" intake of smoking after all. Meanwhile food is a bit harder to manage if you have a problem with it, don't you think? So, for people talking about a "lifestyle" ignore the crazy people. For people talking about realistic challenges beyond "suck it up fatty", you might want to pay attention. Finally, "honor"? I don't think you have widespread discriminatory hiring practices against the "honored".
- hx87 10y ago
  It doesn't, but at least in the US it might seem so because society makes it as hard as possible to get hooked on heroin and tobacco (prohibition, restriction & taxes) and easy as possible to get off of it (rehabilitation programs), whereas the ingredients that cause obesity (e.g. corn) are actively subsidized by the government and promoted by a large portion of the medical establishment. I'd bet that if the US government were actively subsidizing tobacco and opium farmers and processors, addiction to those drugs would be seen much more as a lifestyle choice.
louprado 10y ago
> Scans show greater shrinkage in volume of white matter in overweight and obese people, although it does not appear to affect cognitive performance. Perhaps this is a demonstration that the brain is over-engineered and the extra matter is insurance against damage. If the white matter is being lost slowly, the brain can continuously adapt asymptomatically. There may come a point where there is so much loss/damage dementia is inevitable, implying obese people would have a higher long-term likelihood of dementia. Edit: removed an off topic counter-reference.
- lifeisstillgood 10y ago
  Hmmm, I am so brainy I can waste a few brain cells on second helpings and still get into Mensa. I always knew it ;-)
lifeisstillgood 10y ago
I went to the client subsidised canteen for lunch with my team today. I selected some nice salad from the buffet, and decided to weigh it before heading for the till. At today's conversion rates it was 12 bucks for green leaves and Greek salad. I put it down and had a very nice pie and chips for half that. We have a situation where a significant portion of our society is having to make choices at the margin that it is evolutionarily unable to do. I think we have many challenges ahead of us before we reach that golden future of humanity. wars, climate change, to name two, but they come down to the same problem we have with obesity - arranging our society to ensure our inner chimp's less helpful evolutionary urges do the least damage.

Given that most research findings are false (see http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jou... for confirmation), I'm going to need to see replication of this study before I believe it one way or the other.

reasonattlm 10y ago

If you look at previous research on exercise, inflammation, and brain volume: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroscience.2014.05.005 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroscience.2014.05.005 and the mountain of evidence showing that excess visceral fat tissue produces greater levels of chronic inflammation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437966/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437966/ Then it seems that inflammation would be the first place to start looking for mechanisms linking weight with white matter volume. Certainly more visceral fat is associated with higher risk of all of the common forms of dementia, and most age-related conditions are sped up in their progression by inflammation.

DenisM 10y ago

Assuming observations are statistically sound... Explanation 1: being overweight leads to brain deficiency. Explanation 2: brain deficiency leads to being overweight. Explanation 3: a hidden variable, such as excessive blood sugar or nutrient deficiency, lead to both. Explanation 4: there is no brain deficiency since there is no cognitive impact. The article states as much, which is very refreshing to see in a mainstream paper.

enraged_camel 10y ago
Explanation 5: People who are in shape are more likely to be active and exercise regularly, which have very noticeable benefits on the brain.
- hx87 10y ago
  That would be a subset of Explanation 3.
will_brown 10y ago
>a hidden variable, such as excessive blood sugar Well we do know that eating a lot of sugar increases insulin production and insulin enlarges cells. I am not sure about the whole causation/correlation part of it, but for example with increased insulin production, fat cells become larger and their will be a greater likelihood of obesity even in skinny people. Moreover, I understand it is common for people with high insulin levels to have enlarged organs. It is an outrageous theory, but maybe the difference in the brain is simply cell size due to insulin since that might affect appearance but not function.

dualogy 10y ago

> Brains of overweight people look ten years older So, wiser?

rarec 10y ago
Age doesn't always correlate to wisdom.
- pc86 10y ago
  And it correlates even less to people whose initial reaction to any discussion of age is "BUT WISDOM"
mbillie1 10y ago
More likely closer to dementia, alzheimer's disease, etc.
- rikkus 10y ago
  Ironically, this is linked to from the side of the article: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/10/underweight-people-face-significantly-higher-risk-of-dementia-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/10/underweight-...

deskamess 10y ago

It does not seem to affect cognitive ability (per the article). However I am curious if it is reversible. If you lose weight and get back to 'normal', does the brain layout look normal [for that given age group]?

dspillett 10y ago
> It does not seem to affect cognitive ability Is that the case long term though? It would be interesting to study the progression of people over the next decade or few to see if it seems to speed up the onset of age related dementia or increase susceptibility to other conditions and illnesses.
TearsInTheRain 10y ago
Also what about long term affects? Maybe it doesn't affect my cognitive ability now, but will it make me more susceptible to dementia?
UlyssesSKrunk 10y ago
I'd be interested in seeing if the effect is continuous or happens more at certain ages. Like take a group of people who are obese and say in there 40s, half were obese since they were children, and half became obese after 25 or so. See if there is any difference in brain development if the person was obese while they were still developing. Not sure how you would account for effects of just being obese longer in general tho.

mpg33 10y ago

Well imagine the brain loses out over nutrients/resources in an obese person more so than a smaller person...

suprathreshold 10y ago

In reading the paper, I appreciate the statistical efforts to adjust for age differences between the groups to make their claim, but at least optically it doesn't help that the average age of each cohort was already 10 years different. Lean group M = 48 yrs SD = 16; Overweight M = 57 years SD = 17; Obese M = 61 years SD = 16. The latter two groups were combined for analysis. Is it still contentious to use the BMI to define these groups? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1062684...

bargl 10y ago
Doesn't BMI that uses electrical current to check for fat percentage in body negate the conetentiousness of BMI? I ask because I thought that was the case but now I'm not so sure.
- jaegerpicker 10y ago
  There is no BMI measurement that use's electrical current. That's a body fat index which is very different and much more precise. BMI is a very poor and ultimately very hard to justify formula that only takes into account weight/height sorted by gender. Things like muscle index and body frame are completely ignored and often lead to very poor BMI's for people who shouldn't have them.
  - suprathreshold 10y ago
    Maybe bargl means Bioelectric Impedance Analysis? A cursory internet search also indicates BIA is suspect as a one-time measure.
    - bargl 10y ago
      OK so I have this and I thought that the BMI it computed was based on tracking the fat to everything else based on BIA. But I may be way off here. https://www.fitbit.com/aria https://www.fitbit.com/aria I see that Fitbit tracks this as BodyFat % not BMI. Not sure if that's accurate.

sickbeard 10y ago

So we're going by looks now?

swehner 10y ago

A ten-year-old can be obese. An 80-year-old can be obese. I'm not sure what it says about the corresponding "lean peer" when adding ten years to these ages.

swehner 10y ago
The downvoting at Hacker News is often amusing.

gtrubetskoy 10y ago

There is more and more agreement that obesity, diabetes, hypertension, heart disease and dementia are all in the end manifestations of various forms of metabolic issues, most prevalent of which is (frequently undiagnosed) insulin resistance, which, in turn is the result of high sugar consumption coupled with inflammation (from consuming all kinds of strange substances like food coloring and artificial sweeteners). Our bodies are not very well adapted for continously running on sugar, but ever since early 19th century when sugar became abundant, that's what we've been doing, especially the developed countries.

gruez 10y ago
>coupled with inflammation (from consuming all kinds of strange substances like food coloring and artificial sweeteners) Citation?
- gtrubetskoy 10y ago
  > > coupled with inflammation (from consuming all kinds of strange substances like food coloring and artificial sweeteners) > Citation? Immune reactivity to food coloring: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25599186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25599186
s_q_b 10y ago
>There is more and more agreement that obesity, diabetes, hypertension, heart disease and dementia are all in the end manifestations of various forms of metabolic issues, most prevalent of which is (frequently undiagnosed) insulin resistance Citation needed.
- gtrubetskoy 10y ago
  > Citation needed. You are confusing HN with wikipedia. ;) On a serious note - I purposely avoided including links because this is such a big subject (and neglected to mention that in my post). Just google for it, draw your own conclusions.

AWildDHHAppears 10y ago

Another question is why does "society" honor and accept Obesity as a lifestyle choice, when its openly critical of tobacco addicts and heroin addicts? What's the difference?

Chris2048 10y ago
It doesn't, but a vocal community are pushing this idea.
patorjk 10y ago
I don't think the US weight loss market would be so large if society honored and accepted obesity ($64 billion in 2014 was one number I saw). There's certainly people who push for acceptance, but I've never gotten the feeling that it's the overwhelming sentiment.
Aelinsaar 10y ago
It's widely seen as less of a simple choice to become obese, as it is to take up smoking for one thing. Presumably if you met someone who'd been regularly given cigarettes since they were toddlers, you would have a certain degree of sympathy for their issues as adults. There is also the simple fact that abstinence from tobacco is simple, and easy, and it works for everyone who doesn't choose to smoke. Most people don't attempt to have a "moderate" intake of smoking after all. Meanwhile food is a bit harder to manage if you have a problem with it, don't you think? So, for people talking about a "lifestyle" ignore the crazy people. For people talking about realistic challenges beyond "suck it up fatty", you might want to pay attention. Finally, "honor"? I don't think you have widespread discriminatory hiring practices against the "honored".
hx87 10y ago
It doesn't, but at least in the US it might seem so because society makes it as hard as possible to get hooked on heroin and tobacco (prohibition, restriction & taxes) and easy as possible to get off of it (rehabilitation programs), whereas the ingredients that cause obesity (e.g. corn) are actively subsidized by the government and promoted by a large portion of the medical establishment. I'd bet that if the US government were actively subsidizing tobacco and opium farmers and processors, addiction to those drugs would be seen much more as a lifestyle choice.

louprado 10y ago

> Scans show greater shrinkage in volume of white matter in overweight and obese people, although it does not appear to affect cognitive performance. Perhaps this is a demonstration that the brain is over-engineered and the extra matter is insurance against damage. If the white matter is being lost slowly, the brain can continuously adapt asymptomatically. There may come a point where there is so much loss/damage dementia is inevitable, implying obese people would have a higher long-term likelihood of dementia. Edit: removed an off topic counter-reference.

lifeisstillgood 10y ago
Hmmm, I am so brainy I can waste a few brain cells on second helpings and still get into Mensa. I always knew it ;-)

lifeisstillgood 10y ago

I went to the client subsidised canteen for lunch with my team today. I selected some nice salad from the buffet, and decided to weigh it before heading for the till. At today's conversion rates it was 12 bucks for green leaves and Greek salad. I put it down and had a very nice pie and chips for half that. We have a situation where a significant portion of our society is having to make choices at the margin that it is evolutionarily unable to do. I think we have many challenges ahead of us before we reach that golden future of humanity. wars, climate change, to name two, but they come down to the same problem we have with obesity - arranging our society to ensure our inner chimp's less helpful evolutionary urges do the least damage.