5 ms·

Governments can only do so much to increase intergenerational social mobility. When I look at my peers and myself, it is obvious that it is extremely difficult

by sveme 10y ago

Governments can only do so much to increase intergenerational social mobility. When I look at my peers and myself, it is obvious that it is extremely difficult to emancipate yourself from the role model that is your parents. They are not necessarily role models you follow consciously, but they determine the borders of your imagination. If your family comes from a worker's background, it is extremely hard to imagine that there might be another path in life for you - you simply follow what your kin has been doing in their lifes. The German society can be in principle classified into three social strata: workers (factory, craftsmen etc.), office employees and academics. This comes from the strong early selection into the three-parted school system, which determines at age ten or twelve whether you have the cognitive abilities to succeed in one of these three tracks. So at age ten or twelve, you are either selected to join Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. The first school prepares you to become a worker, car mechanic, hair dresser etc. The second school prepares you to become an office employee, the third prepares you for a life of an academic. Now the twist is, that it is generally your social stratum that decides which school you attend and therefore which track you will follow, thereby perpetuating this low intergenerational social mobility for a long time. Your parents often decide that you will be going to Realschule, which is what they themselves attended - or Gymnasium when your parents are academics. Escaping this track that was selected for you at a young age is much harder than just following it. An example: my parents followed both the second track: Realschule, then an Ausbildung to become office workers. My sisters both followed this track and had therefore lives nearly identical to that of our parents. I was the only one to follow the track to become an academic, and with the lack of role models in my vicinity, this was always accompanied by self doubt and simply a lack of being self-confident in the academic environment. Getting rid of the influence your social environment has on the borders of your imagination is the really hard part for any educational system.

IkmoIkmo 10y ago
All of that sounds very familiar, both the German system as your personal story. It's quite similar in the Netherlands, only that the academic class is mostly found in professional life as well, in which they occupy the traineeships, fast-track and management positions.
wolfgke 10y ago
To give a different view: My father was a working-class child (he is an academic). He really can't understand what the problem is: Just be very diligent in school and you will be good enough for the Gymnasium (this is the road he and in a different way his brother took). On the other hand: If you aren't very hardworking how can you even be considered as able for academic studies? In his view the problem doesn't lie in the three tracks per se, but in the fact that in many working-class families being very diligent and hardworking in school isn't valued enough. Children from academic families will much more often be drilled from childhood on to work very hard for school. He claims he has yet to see a bright child from a working-class family that works very hard for school and will not get a recommendation for Gymnasium (and because of his former job he has seen lots of children). I also know some people who just got bored of their worker or office job and went to evening school to get their Abitur later. Again this requires being diligent and hardworking, but it is quite possible. So I don't see the problem in the three tracks per se. Instead it is a fact that if you want to move up (or do academic studies) you better love to work very hard. And this is a behaviour that is drilled much more into the minds of children of academic families than children of working-class families.
- sveme 10y ago
  It's not a different view, it's actually reinforcing my quintessentially banal point that parents and social environment are factors that are hard to influence by governmental policies. I'm, by the way, a similar example, having become an academic despite having a non-academic family background. The basic question is, where did your father get his wish to become an academic from? How did he manage to maintain the belief in himself despite having no academic role models? "diligence and hard work" is just scratching the explanatory surface.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    > The basic question is, where did your father get his wish to become an academic from? I doubt whether he even explicitly had the wish to become an academic when he was in school. I know what kind of person my grandfather was (very obsessed on learning; also for himself) and this would answer the question. So let's imagine that my grandfather was a quite different kind of person. But in this case because he was so hardworkind (by his nurture) and sufficiently good in school about any teacher would have persuaded my grandfather into letting my father study because anything else would have been a waste. Thus he would have given no other option. If not from my grandfather then from his teachers. And because of the latter I still stand by the point that my father made: He has yet to see a hardworking child from a working-class family that will not get a recommendation letter for Gymnasium (or a hardworking child from a working-class family that is very good in school for which the teachers would not try very hard to convince the parents to let them study). > How did he manage to maintain the belief in himself despite having no academic role models? I can't even imagine why the US-Americans are so obsessed on role models (in Germany this is a word that hardly anyone uses). I had no role model: I studied mathematics and computer science and I know no person in the extended family of which I claim that he or she has an above average talent in empirical or structural sciences, is working in this area or has studied something in this direction. I studied it since I was very good in mathematics and computer science and loved these areas. My father and my sister also had no role model (and particularly for my sister I'm very sure about it).
pjc50 10y ago
The UK had for a while the "grammar school" system which sorted people into two tracks. It's now almost entirely abolished and has been hugely controversial, but I've never been sure on what side the evidence lay. Then there's the third track of the purely private schools.
- gaius 10y ago
  Ironically, by those who had benefited from it themselves when they were young (and also, Assisted Places). Pulling the ladder up after themselves.
purplelobster 10y ago
Spot on. I would also say that one of the most important traits you inherit from your parents is your propensity for taking risks. For example, my parents are very risk-averse which also means they understand next to nothing about investing and the economy. That rubbed off on me, and economics was a huge blind spot in my knowledge until I educated myself in my late 20s. I think being surrounded by risk-averse people also increase the social cost of failure. I.e. lose some money on an investment or start a business the fails and you'll never hear the end of it.
Grishnakh 10y ago
>So at age ten or twelve, you are either selected to join Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. The first school prepares you to become a worker, car mechanic, hair dresser etc. The problem I have with this is: one of these is not like the others. The mental ability needed to be a good mechanic is much greater, I think, than what you need to be a factory worker or a hairdresser. This is especially true with modern cars, which are really technological marvels and highly complex systems. There's a reason they're calling these people "automotive technicians" now instead of just "mechanics". Here in the US, you generally need to go to a rather expensive trade school to learn to be a certified mechanic, and then you have to get the certification (from ASE usually). Most regular office workers would not be able to handle it, I think. Even a lot of scientists and engineers seem to have trouble understanding details of how cars work. It's certainly a more hands-on and dirtier job than the office worker and academic roles, but it's not something you can do if you're a complete idiot, whereas any moron can be trained for a simple factory job, or to wash peoples' hair, or flip burgers.

by sveme 10y ago

IkmoIkmo 10y ago

All of that sounds very familiar, both the German system as your personal story. It's quite similar in the Netherlands, only that the academic class is mostly found in professional life as well, in which they occupy the traineeships, fast-track and management positions.

wolfgke 10y ago

To give a different view: My father was a working-class child (he is an academic). He really can't understand what the problem is: Just be very diligent in school and you will be good enough for the Gymnasium (this is the road he and in a different way his brother took). On the other hand: If you aren't very hardworking how can you even be considered as able for academic studies? In his view the problem doesn't lie in the three tracks per se, but in the fact that in many working-class families being very diligent and hardworking in school isn't valued enough. Children from academic families will much more often be drilled from childhood on to work very hard for school. He claims he has yet to see a bright child from a working-class family that works very hard for school and will not get a recommendation for Gymnasium (and because of his former job he has seen lots of children). I also know some people who just got bored of their worker or office job and went to evening school to get their Abitur later. Again this requires being diligent and hardworking, but it is quite possible. So I don't see the problem in the three tracks per se. Instead it is a fact that if you want to move up (or do academic studies) you better love to work very hard. And this is a behaviour that is drilled much more into the minds of children of academic families than children of working-class families.

sveme 10y ago
It's not a different view, it's actually reinforcing my quintessentially banal point that parents and social environment are factors that are hard to influence by governmental policies. I'm, by the way, a similar example, having become an academic despite having a non-academic family background. The basic question is, where did your father get his wish to become an academic from? How did he manage to maintain the belief in himself despite having no academic role models? "diligence and hard work" is just scratching the explanatory surface.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > The basic question is, where did your father get his wish to become an academic from? I doubt whether he even explicitly had the wish to become an academic when he was in school. I know what kind of person my grandfather was (very obsessed on learning; also for himself) and this would answer the question. So let's imagine that my grandfather was a quite different kind of person. But in this case because he was so hardworkind (by his nurture) and sufficiently good in school about any teacher would have persuaded my grandfather into letting my father study because anything else would have been a waste. Thus he would have given no other option. If not from my grandfather then from his teachers. And because of the latter I still stand by the point that my father made: He has yet to see a hardworking child from a working-class family that will not get a recommendation letter for Gymnasium (or a hardworking child from a working-class family that is very good in school for which the teachers would not try very hard to convince the parents to let them study). > How did he manage to maintain the belief in himself despite having no academic role models? I can't even imagine why the US-Americans are so obsessed on role models (in Germany this is a word that hardly anyone uses). I had no role model: I studied mathematics and computer science and I know no person in the extended family of which I claim that he or she has an above average talent in empirical or structural sciences, is working in this area or has studied something in this direction. I studied it since I was very good in mathematics and computer science and loved these areas. My father and my sister also had no role model (and particularly for my sister I'm very sure about it).

pjc50 10y ago

The UK had for a while the "grammar school" system which sorted people into two tracks. It's now almost entirely abolished and has been hugely controversial, but I've never been sure on what side the evidence lay. Then there's the third track of the purely private schools.

gaius 10y ago
Ironically, by those who had benefited from it themselves when they were young (and also, Assisted Places). Pulling the ladder up after themselves.

purplelobster 10y ago

Spot on. I would also say that one of the most important traits you inherit from your parents is your propensity for taking risks. For example, my parents are very risk-averse which also means they understand next to nothing about investing and the economy. That rubbed off on me, and economics was a huge blind spot in my knowledge until I educated myself in my late 20s. I think being surrounded by risk-averse people also increase the social cost of failure. I.e. lose some money on an investment or start a business the fails and you'll never hear the end of it.

Grishnakh 10y ago

>So at age ten or twelve, you are either selected to join Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. The first school prepares you to become a worker, car mechanic, hair dresser etc. The problem I have with this is: one of these is not like the others. The mental ability needed to be a good mechanic is much greater, I think, than what you need to be a factory worker or a hairdresser. This is especially true with modern cars, which are really technological marvels and highly complex systems. There's a reason they're calling these people "automotive technicians" now instead of just "mechanics". Here in the US, you generally need to go to a rather expensive trade school to learn to be a certified mechanic, and then you have to get the certification (from ASE usually). Most regular office workers would not be able to handle it, I think. Even a lot of scientists and engineers seem to have trouble understanding details of how cars work. It's certainly a more hands-on and dirtier job than the office worker and academic roles, but it's not something you can do if you're a complete idiot, whereas any moron can be trained for a simple factory job, or to wash peoples' hair, or flip burgers.