3 ms·

> Take more from the rich and give more to the poor. What are you going to do when the rich dedicate their resources to avoiding that taking (which they alread

> Take more from the rich and give more to the poor. What are you going to do when the rich dedicate their resources to avoiding that taking (which they already do for the current taxation policies)? I don't think you have a reasonable solution for that. For real-world examples of that, look at FBAR and FATCA and related legislation. They were meant to help the IRS tax rich people, but they had some insane side effects. For one, all US citizens and permanent residents have to file a tax return every year, even if they haven't lived in the US for years and don't owe anything to the IRS. This is a significant hassle for many people. Because of FATCA, anyone who qualifies as a "US resident for tax purposes" also has to report foreign assets and income over a certain value ($50000 if I'm not mistaken). Another "fun" effect (of FBAR this time) is that foreign banks now have to report accounts of US citizens to the IRS, which has made many foreign banks refuse to deal with US citizens or permanent residents. I would not want to be an American expat if I had to deal with that. Idealistic plans like "let's tax the rich and give all that money to the poor" have, in practice, significant negative consequences on people they never intended to harm (such as the middle class). How do you propose to eliminate or mitigate such unintended consequences?

pdkl95 10y ago
> when the rich dedicate their resources to avoiding that taking As professor of economics Mark Blyth explains[1], "The Hamptons are not a defensible position." Similar to the problem with the Martingale betting system where (it works great until your bankroll runs out), all of that theory about taxes is suddenly irrelevant when hungry people decide that taking your stuff directly is a better solution. > How do you propose to eliminate or mitigate such unintended consequences? I don't. Everything has unintended consequences and no plan is perfect. We will always have to manage problems as they arise. How do you propose to keep people from burning your house down because they are hungry, angry, and see no alternative? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg#t=506 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg#t=506 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_%28betting_system%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_%28betting_system%2...
- politicsight 10y ago
  > I don't. Everything has unintended consequences and no plan is perfect. We will always have to manage problems as they arise. But you do, if you (or the GP) want people to support your taxation plan and go along with it. Otherwise, it will get rejected. You need to prove that your plan is effective. > How do you propose to keep people from burning your house down because they are hungry, angry, and see no alternative? That's not really happening even in countries much poorer than the US. Those people are much more likely to steal my stuff than burn it down. I think you're trying to sell a "tiger-repelling rock".
  - pdkl95 10y ago
    > sell I'm offering advice. You're free to ignore it. > That's not really happening even in countries much poorer than the US. Events like Occupy were important warning signs. As the video I linked to discusses, the rise of populism (Trump, etc.) and the rejection of traditional institutions (e.g. brexit) are further examples of people rejecting the status quo. Do you actually have any direct experience in living at or below the poverty line in the US? Recent experience is important, as the situation has been changing. Or are you observations made from a position of privilege? If the latter, you might want better data. The bigger problem, though, is that you seem to be looking for signs of the open revolt I was describing. By the time that happens, we are well past the time these problems might be fixed with social programs. I'm suggesting that our current ship of state is heading towards an economic minefield; "I haven't seen any explosions" is not a particularly useful observation.
    - politicsight 10y ago
      > I'm offering advice. You're free to ignore it. You're presenting a political view. That's not just "advice". > Do you actually have any direct experience in living at or below the poverty line in the US? Recent experience is important, as the situation has been changing. Or are you observations made from a position of privilege? If the latter, you might want better data. I grew up in a post-communist Eastern European country, and have a lot of experience with that (my parents were on the poor side). I'm currently a middle-class programmer, so I wouldn't say I'm privileged (although you might disagree). I believe I have plenty of data and experience with poverty. I'm also very skeptical of redistribution, after seeing what communism actually did to my own country.

pdkl95 10y ago

> when the rich dedicate their resources to avoiding that taking As professor of economics Mark Blyth explains[1], "The Hamptons are not a defensible position." Similar to the problem with the Martingale betting system where (it works great until your bankroll runs out), all of that theory about taxes is suddenly irrelevant when hungry people decide that taking your stuff directly is a better solution. > How do you propose to eliminate or mitigate such unintended consequences? I don't. Everything has unintended consequences and no plan is perfect. We will always have to manage problems as they arise. How do you propose to keep people from burning your house down because they are hungry, angry, and see no alternative? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg#t=506 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg#t=506 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_%28betting_system%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martingale_%28betting_system%2...

politicsight 10y ago
> I don't. Everything has unintended consequences and no plan is perfect. We will always have to manage problems as they arise. But you do, if you (or the GP) want people to support your taxation plan and go along with it. Otherwise, it will get rejected. You need to prove that your plan is effective. > How do you propose to keep people from burning your house down because they are hungry, angry, and see no alternative? That's not really happening even in countries much poorer than the US. Those people are much more likely to steal my stuff than burn it down. I think you're trying to sell a "tiger-repelling rock".
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > sell I'm offering advice. You're free to ignore it. > That's not really happening even in countries much poorer than the US. Events like Occupy were important warning signs. As the video I linked to discusses, the rise of populism (Trump, etc.) and the rejection of traditional institutions (e.g. brexit) are further examples of people rejecting the status quo. Do you actually have any direct experience in living at or below the poverty line in the US? Recent experience is important, as the situation has been changing. Or are you observations made from a position of privilege? If the latter, you might want better data. The bigger problem, though, is that you seem to be looking for signs of the open revolt I was describing. By the time that happens, we are well past the time these problems might be fixed with social programs. I'm suggesting that our current ship of state is heading towards an economic minefield; "I haven't seen any explosions" is not a particularly useful observation.
  - politicsight 10y ago
    > I'm offering advice. You're free to ignore it. You're presenting a political view. That's not just "advice". > Do you actually have any direct experience in living at or below the poverty line in the US? Recent experience is important, as the situation has been changing. Or are you observations made from a position of privilege? If the latter, you might want better data. I grew up in a post-communist Eastern European country, and have a lot of experience with that (my parents were on the poor side). I'm currently a middle-class programmer, so I wouldn't say I'm privileged (although you might disagree). I believe I have plenty of data and experience with poverty. I'm also very skeptical of redistribution, after seeing what communism actually did to my own country.