4 ms·

i don't get it. the first "node" has to get "online" somehow, how is this accomplished?

fweespeech 10y ago
> The first node went live in the early summer of 2004, when Roca turned on a router with a directional antenna he’d installed at the top of a tall building near the local government headquarters. That office was also the only place in town with Internet access, a DSL line Telefonica had run to municipal governments throughout the region. The antenna was aimed, line of sight, toward Roca’s home about six kilometers away.
- lintiness 10y ago
  so he's piggybacking municipal wifi from that building?
  - _nalply 10y ago
    Yes it seemed to have started this way.
futuremeats 10y ago
I share the confusion. Isn't the municipality just* acting as a reseller for telefonica?
- crispyambulance 10y ago
  Its a good question... in the article it states that Guifi was able to get a "peering" connection. Internet service providers have to connect to each other somehow and this is done at IXP (internet exchange points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point )-- basically a huge building where separate providers can come together and exchange traffic. I imagine that a peering connection in such a facility requires a heroic amount of maneuvering around 800 lb gorilla companies, but it certainly is possible if one has enough traffic and money.
  - calgoo 10y ago
    The Guifi network has a connection to the local internet exchange CATNIX. That connection is paid for by the association exo.cat, which is supported by members paying a bi-yearly fee. Edit: grammar
    - devicenull 10y ago
      Peering doesn't get you to the internet at large though, it just gets you to the people connected to the particular exchange (and they're not usually willing to relay your traffic to other networks)
      - crispyambulance 10y ago
        Now I am really mixed up. How else would an independent ISP get to "the internet at large"? Isn't that what a peering agreement is all about at an IXP?
        devicenull 10y ago
        They'd have to buy transit from a provider. Peering is connectivity between two ISPs. Transit is connectivity between you and the rest of the internet.
        crispyambulance 10y ago
        There are perhaps missing details, but Guifi seems to have "become" a provider by having "enough" customers. They got a peering connection. There's a threshold beyond which peering make more sense than transit... (http://packetpushers.net/transit-vs-peering-makes-sense/ http://packetpushers.net/transit-vs-peering-makes-sense/).
- wmf 10y ago
  As usual, the devil is in the "just". Typical US $50/month broadband service includes about $1/month worth of wholesale bandwidth; the rest goes into maintaining the last ~10 miles and profit. There may be room for considerable efficiency gains.
  - amazon_not 10y ago
    I'd sure be interested in what those efficiency gains could be. The ISP business isn't exactly a gold mine and margins are pretty thin. It's only at (massive) scale that things start to look better. I'm sure it'd be much easier if people just moved into their closest DC. That last mile really is such a drag.
    - CyberDildonics 10y ago
      > The ISP business isn't exactly a gold mine and margins are pretty thin. Whoa, who told you that? Lets think about this in simplified terms, if you could run a coax cable to houses around you without caring about it being buried or hidden and start earning $50-$100 a month would you do it? I would be doing nothing else until I collapsed. I would go up and down the street with cable spools of cable putting posts in the ground to split it to people's houses. In one long day you could be earning what you would get from a minimum wage job. In a week you would be middle class. In a month you would live like a lawyer, in two you would live like a doctor, and you would never have to work again to make the same amount of money. Gold mines don't even do this well.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        You are entirely wrong. --- Building networks is, to no one's surprise, expensive. Financial analysts last year estimated that Google had to spend $84 million to build a fiber network that passed 149,000 homes in Kansas City, with the cost per home at $500 to $674. That figure did not include additional costs for actually connecting each home that requests service. A national Google Fiber build out passing 15 percent of US homes would cost $11 billion a year for five years, Wall Street analysts have estimated. Montgomery discussed the challenge of finding what some people call "patient capital," or investors who are willing to put money into companies that might take five or 10 years to make a big profit. "Costs are fixed. You're going pay your staff and maintenance people whether you have one customer or 10,000. All your costs are basically going to be the same," he said. "For a fiber network, you need to reach about 30 percent of the local market within a couple of years, or you're going to go out of business." --- "One big reason we lack Internet competition: Starting an ISP is really hard Creating an ISP? You'll need millions of dollars, patience, and lots of lawyers." http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/04/one-big-reason-we-lack-internet-competition-starting-an-isp-is-really-hard/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/04/one-big-reason-we-la...
evo_9 10y ago
Clearly you are asking a most unreasonable question and hence the donwvotes. I don't get this site anymore.
- doublerebel 10y ago
  All the answers to the questions are in the article, as usual. RTFA is par for the course here.
3pt14159 10y ago
One person can pay to have an expensive connection and shuffle all the internet through that. As more and more people join and bring on their own hardwire connections it becomes much more tolerant to disruption.

> The first node went live in the early summer of 2004, when Roca turned on a router with a directional antenna he’d installed at the top of a tall building near the local government headquarters. That office was also the only place in town with Internet access, a DSL line Telefonica had run to municipal governments throughout the region. The antenna was aimed, line of sight, toward Roca’s home about six kilometers away.

lintiness 10y ago
so he's piggybacking municipal wifi from that building?
- _nalply 10y ago
  Yes it seemed to have started this way.

futuremeats 10y ago

I share the confusion. Isn't the municipality just* acting as a reseller for telefonica?

crispyambulance 10y ago
Its a good question... in the article it states that Guifi was able to get a "peering" connection. Internet service providers have to connect to each other somehow and this is done at IXP (internet exchange points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point )-- basically a huge building where separate providers can come together and exchange traffic. I imagine that a peering connection in such a facility requires a heroic amount of maneuvering around 800 lb gorilla companies, but it certainly is possible if one has enough traffic and money.
- calgoo 10y ago
  The Guifi network has a connection to the local internet exchange CATNIX. That connection is paid for by the association exo.cat, which is supported by members paying a bi-yearly fee. Edit: grammar
  - devicenull 10y ago
    Peering doesn't get you to the internet at large though, it just gets you to the people connected to the particular exchange (and they're not usually willing to relay your traffic to other networks)
    - crispyambulance 10y ago
      Now I am really mixed up. How else would an independent ISP get to "the internet at large"? Isn't that what a peering agreement is all about at an IXP?
      - devicenull 10y ago
        They'd have to buy transit from a provider. Peering is connectivity between two ISPs. Transit is connectivity between you and the rest of the internet.
        crispyambulance 10y ago
        There are perhaps missing details, but Guifi seems to have "become" a provider by having "enough" customers. They got a peering connection. There's a threshold beyond which peering make more sense than transit... (http://packetpushers.net/transit-vs-peering-makes-sense/ http://packetpushers.net/transit-vs-peering-makes-sense/).
wmf 10y ago
As usual, the devil is in the "just". Typical US $50/month broadband service includes about $1/month worth of wholesale bandwidth; the rest goes into maintaining the last ~10 miles and profit. There may be room for considerable efficiency gains.
- amazon_not 10y ago
  I'd sure be interested in what those efficiency gains could be. The ISP business isn't exactly a gold mine and margins are pretty thin. It's only at (massive) scale that things start to look better. I'm sure it'd be much easier if people just moved into their closest DC. That last mile really is such a drag.
  - CyberDildonics 10y ago
    > The ISP business isn't exactly a gold mine and margins are pretty thin. Whoa, who told you that? Lets think about this in simplified terms, if you could run a coax cable to houses around you without caring about it being buried or hidden and start earning $50-$100 a month would you do it? I would be doing nothing else until I collapsed. I would go up and down the street with cable spools of cable putting posts in the ground to split it to people's houses. In one long day you could be earning what you would get from a minimum wage job. In a week you would be middle class. In a month you would live like a lawyer, in two you would live like a doctor, and you would never have to work again to make the same amount of money. Gold mines don't even do this well.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      You are entirely wrong. --- Building networks is, to no one's surprise, expensive. Financial analysts last year estimated that Google had to spend $84 million to build a fiber network that passed 149,000 homes in Kansas City, with the cost per home at $500 to $674. That figure did not include additional costs for actually connecting each home that requests service. A national Google Fiber build out passing 15 percent of US homes would cost $11 billion a year for five years, Wall Street analysts have estimated. Montgomery discussed the challenge of finding what some people call "patient capital," or investors who are willing to put money into companies that might take five or 10 years to make a big profit. "Costs are fixed. You're going pay your staff and maintenance people whether you have one customer or 10,000. All your costs are basically going to be the same," he said. "For a fiber network, you need to reach about 30 percent of the local market within a couple of years, or you're going to go out of business." --- "One big reason we lack Internet competition: Starting an ISP is really hard Creating an ISP? You'll need millions of dollars, patience, and lots of lawyers." http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/04/one-big-reason-we-lack-internet-competition-starting-an-isp-is-really-hard/ http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/04/one-big-reason-we-la...

evo_9 10y ago

Clearly you are asking a most unreasonable question and hence the donwvotes. I don't get this site anymore.

doublerebel 10y ago
All the answers to the questions are in the article, as usual. RTFA is par for the course here.

3pt14159 10y ago

One person can pay to have an expensive connection and shuffle all the internet through that. As more and more people join and bring on their own hardwire connections it becomes much more tolerant to disruption.