7 ms·

Related effect observed by J Spolsky here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html Tldr: everyo

by netcan 10y ago

Related effect observed by J Spolsky here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html Tldr: everyone thinks they hire the top 1% of applicants because some applicants spam hundreds of jobs (and never get hired) while others (typically the better ones) apply for very few and get hired immediately. Your 99% rejected pile is the same as other employers' while your 1% accepted pile is unique to you. A more entertaining (and oddly intuitive) variant is the slut paradox: your average partner has been more promiscuous than you.

komali2 10y ago
As someone who spent yesterday firing off 38 job applications (with personalized cover letters!), this terrifies me.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Cover letters are the worst. Do hiring managers really read them?
  - jib 10y ago
    Some do. I have a colleague who gets really annoyed with bad cover letters when we're interviewing and considers not taking the effort to make it good enough of a reason to reject someone (or at least count is severely against them). Personally I don't care much about your ability to write something that sounds good. So write them and make them good, because you don't know who of us you're interviewing with I guess (metaphorically).
  - baus 10y ago
    When I was doing recruiting I absolutely read the cover letters. If you can't describe why I should consider your background, why should I consider hiring you? I think it is an important indicator on how a developer communicates.
    - djcapelis 10y ago
      Do I really have to spell out the answer to your question? You should consider hiring people because good candidates are hard to find. And if you want to know whether or not they're a good fit for the position, engage them in a conversation and ask. Don't expect applicants to do your job for you, the good candidates have better things to do than write you a letter before you even bother to talk to them.
      - Cd00d 10y ago
        Good candidates are especially hard to find if they're not willing to identify themselves. I consider the cover letter important when I'm a hiring manager. It shows that you're interested enough in the job to try for it, to make a bit of effort. I've never been in a position where there were few enough applicants that I could have a conversation with every one of them - the cover letter is a brief of their half of that first 'why should you work here' discussion. My opinion goes the opposite way when I am being aggressively recruited. So, I think it's on the person asking for something (to be offered a job, or to leave a current job) that should be showing their willingness to make the sale.
        djcapelis 10y ago
        > Good candidates are especially hard to find if they're not willing to identify themselves. Again. That is your problem to solve, not theirs. Good candidates don't need to worry about making sure you see them, they'll either just work for a different company where they happen to have more friends or they'll bypass the first line hiring process entirely by calling up a colleague and telling them to make sure whoever is doing the hiring bothers to call them back.
      - paulsutter 10y ago
        One characteristic of a good applicant is a sincere interest in working for the company. A resume with no cover letter is a sign of a candidate who is blindly spraying out resumes. You can increase your chances of getting hired at a specific company by tenfold of you focus your efforts. Usually this means getting to know people at the company, understanding which departments and projects you may fit.
  - cairo140 10y ago
    When I was recruiting programmers I always read them, though maybe 1 out of every 10 applicants included one. Most companies (including the one I was hiring for) cannot compete on price[1], so they only way they can hire a particularly desirable candidate is if they find a particular fit between candidate and company/role. A strong cover letter is a strong leading indicator of a potential fit, so it is very desirable. [1] - I think the money is there and the economics probably work out to "just pay programmers more" but there are social factors that make this strategy unviable. In particular, most firms are very averse to paying programmers more than the non-technical staff to whom they report so the wage ceiling for programmers at a firm end up being capped to the market-clearing price for those business professionals.
    - loup-vaillant 10y ago
      > When I was recruiting programmers I always read them, though maybe 1 out of every 10 applicants included one. So few? Just to make sure, does the body of the email counts as a cover letter? I always put mine there, surely that doesn't make it invisible?
      - marksc 10y ago
        >surely that doesn't make it invisible? It makes it perfectly visible, to the person who receives your email. After that only your attached resume is printed or passed on to other decision makers. Putting your "cover letter" in body of an email is anywhere from bad to worse practice, depending on the initial recipient of your email (hiring manager vs low level recruiter).
        loup-vaillant 10y ago
        > Putting your "cover letter" in body of an email is anywhere from bad to worse practice So, the onus is on me to put this information in a place that is less convenient to reach than the body of the email? This is ridiculous. The onus should be on them not to lose information. Sure, if I need that job badly, I may have to work around their stupidity. Hopefully I have more leeway than that.
  - lawl 10y ago
    That's interesting, because in Switzerland, and I expect the rest of europe too(?), cover letters are the norm, not the exception.
    - strictnein 10y ago
      It varies in the US. Some require it, some have it as optional, some don't ask for it at all.
    - krzyk 10y ago
      Here in Poland they were the norm about 10-15 years ago (for programmers), now it is unique if someone attaches it. I'm a programmer not a writer, give me a system to create, don't make me write books :)
  - ddebernardy 10y ago
    They do when the cover letter and the CV is short and to the point. When either is not, you're really testing the recruiter's patience. (Recruiters spend 5-7 second on average on a resume.) Much like a brochure, your CV/cover letter is there you to land you a meeting: https://steveblank.com/2011/08/05/bonfire-of-the-vanities/ https://steveblank.com/2011/08/05/bonfire-of-the-vanities/
    - mattkrause 10y ago
      Is that number really true? Humans move their eyes every few hundred milliseconds and you can only read a handful of words after each eye movement, so this suggests that they read about a hundred words total, and probably a lot less if you factor in "seeking" time (e.g., to find the section headings).
      - ddebernardy 10y ago
        Eye tracking study on the topic: http://cdn.theladders.net/static/images/basicSite/pdfs/TheLadders-EyeTracking-StudyC2.pdf http://cdn.theladders.net/static/images/basicSite/pdfs/TheLa... People typically read ~200-300 words per minute. 100 words is a lot more than what you end up reading on most CVs when you go through a pile. You basically scan a CV for a few seconds and move on to the next unless something caught your interest. When so you actually spend a few minutes reading the whole thing - bringing the average to, indeed, under 10s per CV. If HR did its job before sending CVs your way the average is much higher of course.
  - archagon 10y ago
    Anecdotal point of evidence: I got interviewed and subsequently hired because of a cover letter for my first programming job out of college. It probably works a lot better when the company you're applying to is small and passionate.
  - eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
    Why are they the worst? I absolutely read them, especially when so many resumes look exactly the same.
  - slgeorge 10y ago
    Three people in the thread say they often read them. For an alternative, I'll say that I often skim them, but they're generally not very significant in my decision making process. The candidate is generally forced to take the job description and riff from that about how their skills/experience are applicable. The problem is two-fold, first they lack deep context on the situation so land-up writing either off-base or just 'marketing' stuff about how they're the solution to the problem. It's not the candidates fault (or the job description) that the implications of assumptions will be wrong - it's just too early on. Second, if I can't work out how their skills/expertise might be applicable to the actual problems I have (since I know the context), then I probably shouldn't be the hiring manager! I read them because I recognise the effort that candidates are putting into creating them, and on occasion you get a clearer picture of the career arc behind the titles. Where it may help more is for entry level roles where by the nature of the stage of career/life there's not much in a CV. In those circumstances providing some insight and background helps to clear the first hurdle, basically the "why would I spend an hour with you?" question.
  - megablast 10y ago
    They are the most important thing you can send in. In one page, you should summarize why you are a good fit for the role.
- wtvanhest 10y ago
  IMO, the way to get the best jobs at the best company is to find someone who works there or some one who knows someone that works there and express interest. If you have a good convo, your resume goes in and you will get an interview. A cover letter is a massive waste of time vs sending a 3 sentence cold email to someone that works for the company to line up a coffee.
woopwoop 10y ago
Also, you see lots of crazy drivers: if you drive with the flow of traffic, you only see a few other cars, but if you drive 30 miles an hour faster than the flow of traffic, you see tons of cars.

by netcan 10y ago

komali2 10y ago

As someone who spent yesterday firing off 38 job applications (with personalized cover letters!), this terrifies me.

strictnein 10y ago
Cover letters are the worst. Do hiring managers really read them?
- jib 10y ago
  Some do. I have a colleague who gets really annoyed with bad cover letters when we're interviewing and considers not taking the effort to make it good enough of a reason to reject someone (or at least count is severely against them). Personally I don't care much about your ability to write something that sounds good. So write them and make them good, because you don't know who of us you're interviewing with I guess (metaphorically).
- baus 10y ago
  When I was doing recruiting I absolutely read the cover letters. If you can't describe why I should consider your background, why should I consider hiring you? I think it is an important indicator on how a developer communicates.
  - djcapelis 10y ago
    Do I really have to spell out the answer to your question? You should consider hiring people because good candidates are hard to find. And if you want to know whether or not they're a good fit for the position, engage them in a conversation and ask. Don't expect applicants to do your job for you, the good candidates have better things to do than write you a letter before you even bother to talk to them.
    - Cd00d 10y ago
      Good candidates are especially hard to find if they're not willing to identify themselves. I consider the cover letter important when I'm a hiring manager. It shows that you're interested enough in the job to try for it, to make a bit of effort. I've never been in a position where there were few enough applicants that I could have a conversation with every one of them - the cover letter is a brief of their half of that first 'why should you work here' discussion. My opinion goes the opposite way when I am being aggressively recruited. So, I think it's on the person asking for something (to be offered a job, or to leave a current job) that should be showing their willingness to make the sale.
      - djcapelis 10y ago
        > Good candidates are especially hard to find if they're not willing to identify themselves. Again. That is your problem to solve, not theirs. Good candidates don't need to worry about making sure you see them, they'll either just work for a different company where they happen to have more friends or they'll bypass the first line hiring process entirely by calling up a colleague and telling them to make sure whoever is doing the hiring bothers to call them back.
    - paulsutter 10y ago
      One characteristic of a good applicant is a sincere interest in working for the company. A resume with no cover letter is a sign of a candidate who is blindly spraying out resumes. You can increase your chances of getting hired at a specific company by tenfold of you focus your efforts. Usually this means getting to know people at the company, understanding which departments and projects you may fit.
- cairo140 10y ago
  When I was recruiting programmers I always read them, though maybe 1 out of every 10 applicants included one. Most companies (including the one I was hiring for) cannot compete on price[1], so they only way they can hire a particularly desirable candidate is if they find a particular fit between candidate and company/role. A strong cover letter is a strong leading indicator of a potential fit, so it is very desirable. [1] - I think the money is there and the economics probably work out to "just pay programmers more" but there are social factors that make this strategy unviable. In particular, most firms are very averse to paying programmers more than the non-technical staff to whom they report so the wage ceiling for programmers at a firm end up being capped to the market-clearing price for those business professionals.
  - loup-vaillant 10y ago
    > When I was recruiting programmers I always read them, though maybe 1 out of every 10 applicants included one. So few? Just to make sure, does the body of the email counts as a cover letter? I always put mine there, surely that doesn't make it invisible?
    - marksc 10y ago
      >surely that doesn't make it invisible? It makes it perfectly visible, to the person who receives your email. After that only your attached resume is printed or passed on to other decision makers. Putting your "cover letter" in body of an email is anywhere from bad to worse practice, depending on the initial recipient of your email (hiring manager vs low level recruiter).
      - loup-vaillant 10y ago
        > Putting your "cover letter" in body of an email is anywhere from bad to worse practice So, the onus is on me to put this information in a place that is less convenient to reach than the body of the email? This is ridiculous. The onus should be on them not to lose information. Sure, if I need that job badly, I may have to work around their stupidity. Hopefully I have more leeway than that.
- lawl 10y ago
  That's interesting, because in Switzerland, and I expect the rest of europe too(?), cover letters are the norm, not the exception.
  - strictnein 10y ago
    It varies in the US. Some require it, some have it as optional, some don't ask for it at all.
  - krzyk 10y ago
    Here in Poland they were the norm about 10-15 years ago (for programmers), now it is unique if someone attaches it. I'm a programmer not a writer, give me a system to create, don't make me write books :)
- ddebernardy 10y ago
  They do when the cover letter and the CV is short and to the point. When either is not, you're really testing the recruiter's patience. (Recruiters spend 5-7 second on average on a resume.) Much like a brochure, your CV/cover letter is there you to land you a meeting: https://steveblank.com/2011/08/05/bonfire-of-the-vanities/ https://steveblank.com/2011/08/05/bonfire-of-the-vanities/
  - mattkrause 10y ago
    Is that number really true? Humans move their eyes every few hundred milliseconds and you can only read a handful of words after each eye movement, so this suggests that they read about a hundred words total, and probably a lot less if you factor in "seeking" time (e.g., to find the section headings).
    - ddebernardy 10y ago
      Eye tracking study on the topic: http://cdn.theladders.net/static/images/basicSite/pdfs/TheLadders-EyeTracking-StudyC2.pdf http://cdn.theladders.net/static/images/basicSite/pdfs/TheLa... People typically read ~200-300 words per minute. 100 words is a lot more than what you end up reading on most CVs when you go through a pile. You basically scan a CV for a few seconds and move on to the next unless something caught your interest. When so you actually spend a few minutes reading the whole thing - bringing the average to, indeed, under 10s per CV. If HR did its job before sending CVs your way the average is much higher of course.
- archagon 10y ago
  Anecdotal point of evidence: I got interviewed and subsequently hired because of a cover letter for my first programming job out of college. It probably works a lot better when the company you're applying to is small and passionate.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
  Why are they the worst? I absolutely read them, especially when so many resumes look exactly the same.
- slgeorge 10y ago
  Three people in the thread say they often read them. For an alternative, I'll say that I often skim them, but they're generally not very significant in my decision making process. The candidate is generally forced to take the job description and riff from that about how their skills/experience are applicable. The problem is two-fold, first they lack deep context on the situation so land-up writing either off-base or just 'marketing' stuff about how they're the solution to the problem. It's not the candidates fault (or the job description) that the implications of assumptions will be wrong - it's just too early on. Second, if I can't work out how their skills/expertise might be applicable to the actual problems I have (since I know the context), then I probably shouldn't be the hiring manager! I read them because I recognise the effort that candidates are putting into creating them, and on occasion you get a clearer picture of the career arc behind the titles. Where it may help more is for entry level roles where by the nature of the stage of career/life there's not much in a CV. In those circumstances providing some insight and background helps to clear the first hurdle, basically the "why would I spend an hour with you?" question.
- megablast 10y ago
  They are the most important thing you can send in. In one page, you should summarize why you are a good fit for the role.
wtvanhest 10y ago
IMO, the way to get the best jobs at the best company is to find someone who works there or some one who knows someone that works there and express interest. If you have a good convo, your resume goes in and you will get an interview. A cover letter is a massive waste of time vs sending a 3 sentence cold email to someone that works for the company to line up a coffee.

woopwoop 10y ago

Also, you see lots of crazy drivers: if you drive with the flow of traffic, you only see a few other cars, but if you drive 30 miles an hour faster than the flow of traffic, you see tons of cars.