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If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protect

by SeanDav 10y ago

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales and are the policeman of the oceans, but the bigger part of me, wants to believe that they are exactly that!

ObeyTheGuts 10y ago
So altruism is not genetics? We share like 90% of same genes with whales, and most of rest 10% of different genes have just small difference, separating humans from animals is just simply stupid.
- glup 10y ago
  It could also be culturally transmitted
cygx 10y ago
it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It's also very easy to assume humans are more special than we actually are.
- finid 10y ago
  I do find it interesting that we (humans) think we are "more special" than we actually are. People just forget or don't know that the same spark that powers our physical bodies also powers the physical bodies of other living things.
  - cygx 10y ago
    And that the brains that support our minds are part of said bodies. Eg corvids with their tiny little bird brains are apparently capable of feats of intellect that are very human-like in various ways.
- celticninja 10y ago
  its very easy to forget that humans are animals too.
Artoemius 10y ago
There's a whole field you might want to study (altruism features there quite prominently): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
gpderetta 10y ago
It is also very easy to anthropomorphize human behavior. With slightly less snark, altruism and other noble sentiments in humans are also likely due to genetics and learned behavior.
Tosh108 10y ago
The books by Frans de Waal about this topic are very interesting. He's a dutch ethologist, researching the social behaviour and emotions of animals, mainly primates I think. Some of his quotes, source Wikipedia: "To endow animals with human emotions has long been a scientific taboo. But if we do not, we risk missing something fundamental, about both animals and us." "In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples of sympathy, empathy, reciprocity, a willingness to follow social rules. Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores."
- kbenson 10y ago
  > "Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores." Well, that was a good reason why we initially liked them, but the last few millennia of genetic modification through selective breeding to alter their behavior and appearance for our benefit hasn't hurt either...
  - kps 10y ago
    Yes, dogs are the worst possible place to look for ‘anthropomorphic’ behaviour — they've had thirty or forty thousand years of evolutionary pressure to please humans.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      Well, depending on whether you are looking for naturally occurring anthropomorphic behavior, they are either the best or worst place to look. :) That is, they are probably good evidence for some emotions in animals, but fairly useless in their current incarnation as to whether it was naturally occurring. Interestingly, it's entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that they exhibited some of this behavior originally due to their social nature, and this is what causes humans to start the process of domestication in the first place (not that it was likely a decision like that). What's really interesting is how quickly changes, both behavioral and physical happen during domestication (and how quickly domestication works, possibly on the order of a decade or so)[1]. 1: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91696-new-nice/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/91696-new-nice/
techiferous 10y ago
> it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It is also easy to assume that an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting.
- krylon 10y ago
  It is a valid objection. When a certain type of great cat kills, say, an antelope, it will look around carefully. Humans first describing this behavior assumed the cats were feeling guilty for killing and wanted to check if there were any "witnesses". Nowadays, this behavior is interpreted as checking for hyenas, who like to snatch away prey from other predators. I would not consider this behavior dumb or uninteresting, but it is - probably - for a different reason than a human observer might naively assume. Being aware that animals might do things for different reasons than humans is not dismissing the animal's motives, it can be a key to understanding its behavior. It is not at all the same as assuming an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting, at least I do not think the GP wanted to imply that.
gerbilly 10y ago
>If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. I think that we also very easily 'anthropomorphize' human behavior; that is to say that we superimpose our own assumptions onto other people's behaviour. We are animals too, and the rational part is only a thin, recent addition to our brains. I believe many animals are just as intelligent as us in their own way.
njharman 10y ago
Anthropomorphism is anthropomorphic. We are animals, mammals. Whales are also mammal animals. To attribute our behaviours as something solely human is ridiculous hubris and a vestige of hundreds of years of scientific ignorance.
HillaryBriss 10y ago
> ... the policeman of the oceans i thought it was Aquaman. the dolphins are his deputies.

by SeanDav 10y ago

ObeyTheGuts 10y ago

So altruism is not genetics? We share like 90% of same genes with whales, and most of rest 10% of different genes have just small difference, separating humans from animals is just simply stupid.

glup 10y ago
It could also be culturally transmitted

cygx 10y ago

it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It's also very easy to assume humans are more special than we actually are.

finid 10y ago
I do find it interesting that we (humans) think we are "more special" than we actually are. People just forget or don't know that the same spark that powers our physical bodies also powers the physical bodies of other living things.
- cygx 10y ago
  And that the brains that support our minds are part of said bodies. Eg corvids with their tiny little bird brains are apparently capable of feats of intellect that are very human-like in various ways.
celticninja 10y ago
its very easy to forget that humans are animals too.

Artoemius 10y ago

There's a whole field you might want to study (altruism features there quite prominently): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

gpderetta 10y ago

It is also very easy to anthropomorphize human behavior. With slightly less snark, altruism and other noble sentiments in humans are also likely due to genetics and learned behavior.

Tosh108 10y ago

The books by Frans de Waal about this topic are very interesting. He's a dutch ethologist, researching the social behaviour and emotions of animals, mainly primates I think. Some of his quotes, source Wikipedia: "To endow animals with human emotions has long been a scientific taboo. But if we do not, we risk missing something fundamental, about both animals and us." "In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples of sympathy, empathy, reciprocity, a willingness to follow social rules. Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores."

kbenson 10y ago
> "Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores." Well, that was a good reason why we initially liked them, but the last few millennia of genetic modification through selective breeding to alter their behavior and appearance for our benefit hasn't hurt either...
- kps 10y ago
  Yes, dogs are the worst possible place to look for ‘anthropomorphic’ behaviour — they've had thirty or forty thousand years of evolutionary pressure to please humans.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Well, depending on whether you are looking for naturally occurring anthropomorphic behavior, they are either the best or worst place to look. :) That is, they are probably good evidence for some emotions in animals, but fairly useless in their current incarnation as to whether it was naturally occurring. Interestingly, it's entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that they exhibited some of this behavior originally due to their social nature, and this is what causes humans to start the process of domestication in the first place (not that it was likely a decision like that). What's really interesting is how quickly changes, both behavioral and physical happen during domestication (and how quickly domestication works, possibly on the order of a decade or so)[1]. 1: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91696-new-nice/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/91696-new-nice/

techiferous 10y ago

> it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It is also easy to assume that an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting.

krylon 10y ago
It is a valid objection. When a certain type of great cat kills, say, an antelope, it will look around carefully. Humans first describing this behavior assumed the cats were feeling guilty for killing and wanted to check if there were any "witnesses". Nowadays, this behavior is interpreted as checking for hyenas, who like to snatch away prey from other predators. I would not consider this behavior dumb or uninteresting, but it is - probably - for a different reason than a human observer might naively assume. Being aware that animals might do things for different reasons than humans is not dismissing the animal's motives, it can be a key to understanding its behavior. It is not at all the same as assuming an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting, at least I do not think the GP wanted to imply that.

gerbilly 10y ago

>If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. I think that we also very easily 'anthropomorphize' human behavior; that is to say that we superimpose our own assumptions onto other people's behaviour. We are animals too, and the rational part is only a thin, recent addition to our brains. I believe many animals are just as intelligent as us in their own way.

njharman 10y ago

Anthropomorphism is anthropomorphic. We are animals, mammals. Whales are also mammal animals. To attribute our behaviours as something solely human is ridiculous hubris and a vestige of hundreds of years of scientific ignorance.

HillaryBriss 10y ago

> ... the policeman of the oceans i thought it was Aquaman. the dolphins are his deputies.