7 ms·

You can deny everything and anything. However claiming Turkey is governed with dictatorship will not make you right. You need to put more evidence on the opposi

by afsina 10y ago

You can deny everything and anything. However claiming Turkey is governed with dictatorship will not make you right. You need to put more evidence on the opposing theories and so far they do not add up.

dragandj 10y ago
Well, there are even more tons of "confessions" of the accused that "confess" NOT being part of the coup. I hope you'll give them the same weight as the opposite confessions.
- afsina 10y ago
  Claiming being not part of a coup is something else. I have yet to see a coup official claiming it was a fake or orchestrated by the government.
  - dragandj 10y ago
    How does one achieve the official status of a "coup official"?
    - mda 10y ago
      An army offical involved in coup? e.g. either gave orders to soldiers to participate, or did not take action against the coup when ordered so.
      - dragandj 10y ago
        OK. So now we are limiting this to the army and leaving teachers and flight attendants out. And all (or many) of those army officials allegedly involved in the coup attempt eagerly "confessed" their erroneous ways, while none of them denied being involved in a coup?
    - vintermann 10y ago
      For instance by shooting four of your soldiers who refuse orders to participate in the coup. You should take a look at Bellingcat's coverage.
      - dragandj 10y ago
        That's what I'm talking about. If there is evidence about person X doing some criminal deed (shoting soldiers) that in itself is sufficient for prosecuting him. You do not need his "confession" for that. The problem is about prosecuting 99000 teachers, academics, and other "inconvenient" people, without much more than a hint that they do not like you or that they make fun of your similarity with Golum.
- mda 10y ago
  Coup was not an act of a single group. Government is putting all the blame to one group, they were not the only one. However this Doesn't mean that particular groups was not involved or took the initiative, I hope more will be revealed in time.
totalcrepe 10y ago
But two religious anti-republicans admittedly helped each other into government and supposedly into even the most republican parts of government. But they turn on each other using the most republican wing? If "Gulen's people" existed in government then they would have a police run coup with a thin veneer of military. They would also keep as much from the military as possible since they are the type of trash the military takes out whenever it is in cleanup mode. Gulen is pretty obviously Erodogan's version of a US vice president. A stupider version of himself that no one wants and stays a threat if the president is removed by force.
- fatihpense 10y ago
  But they were in the police force, after things really started to break between Erdogan and Gulen (December 2013) Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force.
  - totalcrepe 10y ago
    > Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force. Ok, so then the people Erdogan moved into the military between 2010 and 2013 they were these remaining Gulen supporters in government that are intent on destroying the republic? Or he decided not to out existing Gulen supporters he helped sneak in to the military before 2010 to either his new or its past republican leadership, (which would happily contain or remove such elements.) None of this makes any sense unless he is admitting that he was an element of a religious group's conspiracy to corrupt the republic until 2013 and now also thinks his own continuation of power is more important than whatever religious beliefs he feels trump the republic. (A republic can't matter to a conspirator against it, right?) That sounds like it would be slight if someone other than Erdogan said it about him and a terrible official position for a president of a republic. So what is his official position on the past that makes sense with all of this data about a Gulen lead conspiracy to destroy the Turkish Republic that began "decades before" their 2013 split?
    - fatihpense 10y ago
      Actually yes he is ironically admitting. (Turkish) http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-aciklamalar-40180992 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-a... "Rabbimden af milletimden özür diliyorum dedim. Çünkü burada hata yapmışız." "I said that I apologize to my nation, ask for forgiveness from my god. Because we made a mistake here." Gulen's organisation is older, they started to recruit people to state positions starting from 1970's. Erdogan and Gulen supported each other after 2002 election. Both benefited from this partnership at that time. Especially after Ergenekon trials, the army lost the ability to clean Gulen supporters. The organisation spread like a virus, capturing key positions faster. As the remaining uneaten pie got smaller, they realized the country is not big enough for two of them(2011-2013). I think that too much centralized power is a bad thing. Something like checks and balances is needed in Turkey. However at this point it is better for a selected goverment to be in power than a secretive ponzi-scheme-like organisation(lesser evil mindset). Ironically Erdogan says now: "we were deceived". Other political parties say: "what if you get deceived again?". If you are interested there are more info on the background of events in some wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G%C3%BClen_Movement_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G...

by afsina 10y ago

dragandj 10y ago

Well, there are even more tons of "confessions" of the accused that "confess" NOT being part of the coup. I hope you'll give them the same weight as the opposite confessions.

afsina 10y ago
Claiming being not part of a coup is something else. I have yet to see a coup official claiming it was a fake or orchestrated by the government.
- dragandj 10y ago
  How does one achieve the official status of a "coup official"?
  - mda 10y ago
    An army offical involved in coup? e.g. either gave orders to soldiers to participate, or did not take action against the coup when ordered so.
    - dragandj 10y ago
      OK. So now we are limiting this to the army and leaving teachers and flight attendants out. And all (or many) of those army officials allegedly involved in the coup attempt eagerly "confessed" their erroneous ways, while none of them denied being involved in a coup?
  - vintermann 10y ago
    For instance by shooting four of your soldiers who refuse orders to participate in the coup. You should take a look at Bellingcat's coverage.
    - dragandj 10y ago
      That's what I'm talking about. If there is evidence about person X doing some criminal deed (shoting soldiers) that in itself is sufficient for prosecuting him. You do not need his "confession" for that. The problem is about prosecuting 99000 teachers, academics, and other "inconvenient" people, without much more than a hint that they do not like you or that they make fun of your similarity with Golum.
mda 10y ago
Coup was not an act of a single group. Government is putting all the blame to one group, they were not the only one. However this Doesn't mean that particular groups was not involved or took the initiative, I hope more will be revealed in time.

totalcrepe 10y ago

But two religious anti-republicans admittedly helped each other into government and supposedly into even the most republican parts of government. But they turn on each other using the most republican wing? If "Gulen's people" existed in government then they would have a police run coup with a thin veneer of military. They would also keep as much from the military as possible since they are the type of trash the military takes out whenever it is in cleanup mode. Gulen is pretty obviously Erodogan's version of a US vice president. A stupider version of himself that no one wants and stays a threat if the president is removed by force.

fatihpense 10y ago
But they were in the police force, after things really started to break between Erdogan and Gulen (December 2013) Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force.
- totalcrepe 10y ago
  > Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force. Ok, so then the people Erdogan moved into the military between 2010 and 2013 they were these remaining Gulen supporters in government that are intent on destroying the republic? Or he decided not to out existing Gulen supporters he helped sneak in to the military before 2010 to either his new or its past republican leadership, (which would happily contain or remove such elements.) None of this makes any sense unless he is admitting that he was an element of a religious group's conspiracy to corrupt the republic until 2013 and now also thinks his own continuation of power is more important than whatever religious beliefs he feels trump the republic. (A republic can't matter to a conspirator against it, right?) That sounds like it would be slight if someone other than Erdogan said it about him and a terrible official position for a president of a republic. So what is his official position on the past that makes sense with all of this data about a Gulen lead conspiracy to destroy the Turkish Republic that began "decades before" their 2013 split?
  - fatihpense 10y ago
    Actually yes he is ironically admitting. (Turkish) http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-aciklamalar-40180992 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-a... "Rabbimden af milletimden özür diliyorum dedim. Çünkü burada hata yapmışız." "I said that I apologize to my nation, ask for forgiveness from my god. Because we made a mistake here." Gulen's organisation is older, they started to recruit people to state positions starting from 1970's. Erdogan and Gulen supported each other after 2002 election. Both benefited from this partnership at that time. Especially after Ergenekon trials, the army lost the ability to clean Gulen supporters. The organisation spread like a virus, capturing key positions faster. As the remaining uneaten pie got smaller, they realized the country is not big enough for two of them(2011-2013). I think that too much centralized power is a bad thing. Something like checks and balances is needed in Turkey. However at this point it is better for a selected goverment to be in power than a secretive ponzi-scheme-like organisation(lesser evil mindset). Ironically Erdogan says now: "we were deceived". Other political parties say: "what if you get deceived again?". If you are interested there are more info on the background of events in some wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G%C3%BClen_Movement_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G...