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It is overwhelmingly evident that coup was at least partly planned by Gulenists. There are tens of coup confessions making a direct link to the group already. A

by afsina 10y ago

It is overwhelmingly evident that coup was at least partly planned by Gulenists. There are tens of coup confessions making a direct link to the group already. All political groups in Turkey have a consensus on this. However somewhat foreign press is trying hard to see it other way. Many foreign journalists even supported the coup instead of condemning until failure is imminent. Some reasons can be that they just dislike the current president and often their information sources are people who are affiliated with the cleric's movement. Clearly this coup attempt gave a golden opportunity to the president to purge Gulen followers from the state and nobody is denying this. But that is the expected behavior, whether or not it is justified. To me, Gulen and his upper hierarchy just blindly pushed all their low rank followers to the fire (most probably did not have a clue about the coup).

dragandj 10y ago
Ton of coup confessions? When the KGB-like service gets anyone in their hands, they can make him or her confess anything. That's like Dictatorship 101.
- afsina 10y ago
  You can deny everything and anything. However claiming Turkey is governed with dictatorship will not make you right. You need to put more evidence on the opposing theories and so far they do not add up.
  - dragandj 10y ago
    Well, there are even more tons of "confessions" of the accused that "confess" NOT being part of the coup. I hope you'll give them the same weight as the opposite confessions.
    - afsina 10y ago
      Claiming being not part of a coup is something else. I have yet to see a coup official claiming it was a fake or orchestrated by the government.
      - dragandj 10y ago
        How does one achieve the official status of a "coup official"?
        mda 10y ago
        An army offical involved in coup? e.g. either gave orders to soldiers to participate, or did not take action against the coup when ordered so.
        dragandj 10y ago
        OK. So now we are limiting this to the army and leaving teachers and flight attendants out. And all (or many) of those army officials allegedly involved in the coup attempt eagerly "confessed" their erroneous ways, while none of them denied being involved in a coup?
        vintermann 10y ago
        For instance by shooting four of your soldiers who refuse orders to participate in the coup. You should take a look at Bellingcat's coverage.
        dragandj 10y ago
        That's what I'm talking about. If there is evidence about person X doing some criminal deed (shoting soldiers) that in itself is sufficient for prosecuting him. You do not need his "confession" for that. The problem is about prosecuting 99000 teachers, academics, and other "inconvenient" people, without much more than a hint that they do not like you or that they make fun of your similarity with Golum.
    - mda 10y ago
      Coup was not an act of a single group. Government is putting all the blame to one group, they were not the only one. However this Doesn't mean that particular groups was not involved or took the initiative, I hope more will be revealed in time.
  - totalcrepe 10y ago
    But two religious anti-republicans admittedly helped each other into government and supposedly into even the most republican parts of government. But they turn on each other using the most republican wing? If "Gulen's people" existed in government then they would have a police run coup with a thin veneer of military. They would also keep as much from the military as possible since they are the type of trash the military takes out whenever it is in cleanup mode. Gulen is pretty obviously Erodogan's version of a US vice president. A stupider version of himself that no one wants and stays a threat if the president is removed by force.
    - fatihpense 10y ago
      But they were in the police force, after things really started to break between Erdogan and Gulen (December 2013) Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force.
      - totalcrepe 10y ago
        > Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force. Ok, so then the people Erdogan moved into the military between 2010 and 2013 they were these remaining Gulen supporters in government that are intent on destroying the republic? Or he decided not to out existing Gulen supporters he helped sneak in to the military before 2010 to either his new or its past republican leadership, (which would happily contain or remove such elements.) None of this makes any sense unless he is admitting that he was an element of a religious group's conspiracy to corrupt the republic until 2013 and now also thinks his own continuation of power is more important than whatever religious beliefs he feels trump the republic. (A republic can't matter to a conspirator against it, right?) That sounds like it would be slight if someone other than Erdogan said it about him and a terrible official position for a president of a republic. So what is his official position on the past that makes sense with all of this data about a Gulen lead conspiracy to destroy the Turkish Republic that began "decades before" their 2013 split?
        fatihpense 10y ago
        Actually yes he is ironically admitting. (Turkish) http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-aciklamalar-40180992 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-a... "Rabbimden af milletimden özür diliyorum dedim. Çünkü burada hata yapmışız." "I said that I apologize to my nation, ask for forgiveness from my god. Because we made a mistake here." Gulen's organisation is older, they started to recruit people to state positions starting from 1970's. Erdogan and Gulen supported each other after 2002 election. Both benefited from this partnership at that time. Especially after Ergenekon trials, the army lost the ability to clean Gulen supporters. The organisation spread like a virus, capturing key positions faster. As the remaining uneaten pie got smaller, they realized the country is not big enough for two of them(2011-2013). I think that too much centralized power is a bad thing. Something like checks and balances is needed in Turkey. However at this point it is better for a selected goverment to be in power than a secretive ponzi-scheme-like organisation(lesser evil mindset). Ironically Erdogan says now: "we were deceived". Other political parties say: "what if you get deceived again?". If you are interested there are more info on the background of events in some wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G%C3%BClen_Movement_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G...
- mda 10y ago
  Or maybe they were involved and confessed during questioning for a bargain? Just because they did not tell things you wanted to hear doesn't mean they were given under duress or torture.
  - dragandj 10y ago
    In any legal system that deserves to be called legal, sole confession without other strong material evidence is not acceptable. Bargain, sure... No beating, no electro-shocks, no sleep deprivation. They just ask politely and show a little friendliness. Right. If they have material evidence, what's the use of a "confession"? If they don't, there's something fishy already. BTW, there obviously WAS some sort of coup or "coup". But who pulled the strings, what were the intentions, and, most importantly, were all those tens and hundreds of thousands people involved is completely fishy, judging by the news, and especially official news from Turkey.
    - mda 10y ago
      I understand the skepticism, this is my personal observation so far. I read the initial statements, in time there will be court proceedings, and more data. They seem quite genuine to me. Unfortunately they are mostly in Turkish.
saiya-jin 10y ago
I've grown up in semi-oppressive regime and let me tell you, Erdogan's behavior is comic-book dictator in prime example, let's say Putin-style. i don't see person like him going away from power anytime soon. oh and what happened to the stories of his son trading oil with ISIS, and his daughter building hospitals to treat wounded ISIS mercenaries? 3 years ago I visited turkey, it seemed like nice country with nice people, but these days I only wish it would be further away from Europe. and to think such a place wanted to join EU...
- afsina 10y ago
  About those stories, search deeper for their sources.
- fatihpense 10y ago
  Come visit again, please. It is still nice country with nice people. It only has bad friends as the saying goes. The geography has a lot of problems. There are a lot of strategies and games played by many players so disinformation is everywhere. I wish Turkey was an island nation.
  - NicoJuicy 10y ago
    I'm from Europe, have visited Turkey in the past, but have lost all affiliation to it. Erdogan even sues comedians abroad for telling a joke.. I really hope he never enters as eu member, it shouldn't be on the table in the first place. Turkey isn't the same any more.
    - fatihpense 10y ago
      I respect your opinion and also think it is not a classy move by Erdogan. On the other hand joking, criticizing and insulting different things and Germany actually prosecuted the comedian for that event. So in that sense German legal system thinks Erdogan is right, and he only used his legal rights? I enjoy watching US political debates and as far as I can see they are free to insult everyone. Sometimes that brings color to conversation and I wish we had more freedom to insult in Turkey. For the EU membership, I have complicated feelings. When I look from the perspective of EU. I don't know what will Turkey bring to EU? Opportunities or risks? Probably both. They may not want to deal with minor or major problems Turkey brings and that is OK. As a Turkish citizen and a curious person for different cultures, I would love to experience and learn from what EU brings. Maybe I just can't sense the boiling, maybe we got used to getting shocked... But Turkey feels the same at everyday life.

by afsina 10y ago

dragandj 10y ago

Ton of coup confessions? When the KGB-like service gets anyone in their hands, they can make him or her confess anything. That's like Dictatorship 101.

afsina 10y ago
You can deny everything and anything. However claiming Turkey is governed with dictatorship will not make you right. You need to put more evidence on the opposing theories and so far they do not add up.
- dragandj 10y ago
  Well, there are even more tons of "confessions" of the accused that "confess" NOT being part of the coup. I hope you'll give them the same weight as the opposite confessions.
  - afsina 10y ago
    Claiming being not part of a coup is something else. I have yet to see a coup official claiming it was a fake or orchestrated by the government.
    - dragandj 10y ago
      How does one achieve the official status of a "coup official"?
      - mda 10y ago
        An army offical involved in coup? e.g. either gave orders to soldiers to participate, or did not take action against the coup when ordered so.
        dragandj 10y ago
        OK. So now we are limiting this to the army and leaving teachers and flight attendants out. And all (or many) of those army officials allegedly involved in the coup attempt eagerly "confessed" their erroneous ways, while none of them denied being involved in a coup?
      - vintermann 10y ago
        For instance by shooting four of your soldiers who refuse orders to participate in the coup. You should take a look at Bellingcat's coverage.
        dragandj 10y ago
        That's what I'm talking about. If there is evidence about person X doing some criminal deed (shoting soldiers) that in itself is sufficient for prosecuting him. You do not need his "confession" for that. The problem is about prosecuting 99000 teachers, academics, and other "inconvenient" people, without much more than a hint that they do not like you or that they make fun of your similarity with Golum.
  - mda 10y ago
    Coup was not an act of a single group. Government is putting all the blame to one group, they were not the only one. However this Doesn't mean that particular groups was not involved or took the initiative, I hope more will be revealed in time.
- totalcrepe 10y ago
  But two religious anti-republicans admittedly helped each other into government and supposedly into even the most republican parts of government. But they turn on each other using the most republican wing? If "Gulen's people" existed in government then they would have a police run coup with a thin veneer of military. They would also keep as much from the military as possible since they are the type of trash the military takes out whenever it is in cleanup mode. Gulen is pretty obviously Erodogan's version of a US vice president. A stupider version of himself that no one wants and stays a threat if the president is removed by force.
  - fatihpense 10y ago
    But they were in the police force, after things really started to break between Erdogan and Gulen (December 2013) Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force.
    - totalcrepe 10y ago
      > Erdogan made many interventions to clean police force. Ok, so then the people Erdogan moved into the military between 2010 and 2013 they were these remaining Gulen supporters in government that are intent on destroying the republic? Or he decided not to out existing Gulen supporters he helped sneak in to the military before 2010 to either his new or its past republican leadership, (which would happily contain or remove such elements.) None of this makes any sense unless he is admitting that he was an element of a religious group's conspiracy to corrupt the republic until 2013 and now also thinks his own continuation of power is more important than whatever religious beliefs he feels trump the republic. (A republic can't matter to a conspirator against it, right?) That sounds like it would be slight if someone other than Erdogan said it about him and a terrible official position for a president of a republic. So what is his official position on the past that makes sense with all of this data about a Gulen lead conspiracy to destroy the Turkish Republic that began "decades before" their 2013 split?
      - fatihpense 10y ago
        Actually yes he is ironically admitting. (Turkish) http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-aciklamalar-40180992 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/cumhurbaskani-erdogandan-onemli-a... "Rabbimden af milletimden özür diliyorum dedim. Çünkü burada hata yapmışız." "I said that I apologize to my nation, ask for forgiveness from my god. Because we made a mistake here." Gulen's organisation is older, they started to recruit people to state positions starting from 1970's. Erdogan and Gulen supported each other after 2002 election. Both benefited from this partnership at that time. Especially after Ergenekon trials, the army lost the ability to clean Gulen supporters. The organisation spread like a virus, capturing key positions faster. As the remaining uneaten pie got smaller, they realized the country is not big enough for two of them(2011-2013). I think that too much centralized power is a bad thing. Something like checks and balances is needed in Turkey. However at this point it is better for a selected goverment to be in power than a secretive ponzi-scheme-like organisation(lesser evil mindset). Ironically Erdogan says now: "we were deceived". Other political parties say: "what if you get deceived again?". If you are interested there are more info on the background of events in some wiki pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_(coup_plan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corruption_scandal_in_Tur... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imam%27s_Army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G%C3%BClen_Movement_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_government_%E2%80%93_G...
mda 10y ago
Or maybe they were involved and confessed during questioning for a bargain? Just because they did not tell things you wanted to hear doesn't mean they were given under duress or torture.
- dragandj 10y ago
  In any legal system that deserves to be called legal, sole confession without other strong material evidence is not acceptable. Bargain, sure... No beating, no electro-shocks, no sleep deprivation. They just ask politely and show a little friendliness. Right. If they have material evidence, what's the use of a "confession"? If they don't, there's something fishy already. BTW, there obviously WAS some sort of coup or "coup". But who pulled the strings, what were the intentions, and, most importantly, were all those tens and hundreds of thousands people involved is completely fishy, judging by the news, and especially official news from Turkey.
  - mda 10y ago
    I understand the skepticism, this is my personal observation so far. I read the initial statements, in time there will be court proceedings, and more data. They seem quite genuine to me. Unfortunately they are mostly in Turkish.

saiya-jin 10y ago

I've grown up in semi-oppressive regime and let me tell you, Erdogan's behavior is comic-book dictator in prime example, let's say Putin-style. i don't see person like him going away from power anytime soon. oh and what happened to the stories of his son trading oil with ISIS, and his daughter building hospitals to treat wounded ISIS mercenaries? 3 years ago I visited turkey, it seemed like nice country with nice people, but these days I only wish it would be further away from Europe. and to think such a place wanted to join EU...

afsina 10y ago
About those stories, search deeper for their sources.
fatihpense 10y ago
Come visit again, please. It is still nice country with nice people. It only has bad friends as the saying goes. The geography has a lot of problems. There are a lot of strategies and games played by many players so disinformation is everywhere. I wish Turkey was an island nation.
- NicoJuicy 10y ago
  I'm from Europe, have visited Turkey in the past, but have lost all affiliation to it. Erdogan even sues comedians abroad for telling a joke.. I really hope he never enters as eu member, it shouldn't be on the table in the first place. Turkey isn't the same any more.
  - fatihpense 10y ago
    I respect your opinion and also think it is not a classy move by Erdogan. On the other hand joking, criticizing and insulting different things and Germany actually prosecuted the comedian for that event. So in that sense German legal system thinks Erdogan is right, and he only used his legal rights? I enjoy watching US political debates and as far as I can see they are free to insult everyone. Sometimes that brings color to conversation and I wish we had more freedom to insult in Turkey. For the EU membership, I have complicated feelings. When I look from the perspective of EU. I don't know what will Turkey bring to EU? Opportunities or risks? Probably both. They may not want to deal with minor or major problems Turkey brings and that is OK. As a Turkish citizen and a curious person for different cultures, I would love to experience and learn from what EU brings. Maybe I just can't sense the boiling, maybe we got used to getting shocked... But Turkey feels the same at everyday life.