4 ms·

I had a quick look at the budget [0] and it would seem the public defender office has a larger budget [2016 $40m] than prosecution [2016 $35m]. Wouldn't a fair

by NolF 10y ago

I had a quick look at the budget [0] and it would seem the public defender office has a larger budget [2016 $40m] than prosecution [2016 $35m]. Wouldn't a fair defence system have a similar budget to the prosecution? It would seem that they use about 157 FTEs more in the defence than prosecution. Granted I don't exactly know how these departments are layout but I thought that without a prosecutor you don't need a defence. So a 1:1 ratio would seem about fair, and being overwhelmed would be a case of inefficiencies in one department compared to another. [0] https://oa.mo.gov/sites/default/files/FY_2016_Executive_Budget_Download.pdf https://oa.mo.gov/sites/default/files/FY_2016_Executive_Budg...

dmoy 10y ago
Does a defense attorney get involved much earlier in the process than a prosecutor? If so strict #s of annual budget isn't a fair comparison.
xenadu02 10y ago
If you want to be fair you also need to include all police detectives in the prosecution's headcount, as the police do not and will not assist public defenders in research or evidence gathering. They work only for the prosecution. Public defenders also include the ad litem attorneys for children in family court.
SmellTheGlove 10y ago
Defense takes more resources than prosecution. The prosecution has the relative luxury of the police force doing its investigatory work - hard evidence, witness identification, etc. The defense gets discovery of a lot of that, but also has to do its own investigatory legwork regarding the facts, alibis, exculpatory evidence that wasn't turned over (or not investigated at all), friendly witnesses, etc. To make a 1:1 ratio work, you need to include the police resources used in the prosecution and allocate investigative resources to the public defenders office accordingly. PDs tend to be good lawyers, but you're boned if you need one. Again, it's not the legal skills, it's that they lack the resources to actually dig into your case, and the sorts of people who usually need a PD are also of a socioeconomic status that doesn't have the education or resources to do the legwork.
- NolF 10y ago
  I followed up on Digory's comment and found prosecution budget has an additional 43.8m from county budgets. And that doesn't account for the efficiencies of the PD doing the investigation work for them... a 1:2 ratio hardly seems just
- Fjolsvith 10y ago
  Not to mention that the defendant usually cannot do the legwork from inside a cell.
  - SmellTheGlove 10y ago
    And the guy that needs the PD probably isn't making bail, either.
Digory 10y ago
It's far more lopsided than it appears in those numbers. In Missouri, most prosecutions are handled by a county's Prosecuting Attorney's office, which are funded by each county's budget (largely property taxes). There are 115 counties, including St. Louis. In larger counties, those offices will have 150 employees and $10 million budgets. The counties sometimes pay for office space for the Public Defender, but they're not paying salaries. The $35 million for Prosecution Services in the state budget is to fund a small office that helps coordinate the county efforts statewide, and helps prosecutors in small counties who are overwhelmed by unexpectedly complex cases. So the $40 million for defense state wide, which will be dwarfed by the combined budgets of the Attorney General and county prosecutors.
- NolF 10y ago
  That's very informative. I had a quick look online and found a tabulated by county for 2015 prosecution budgets 43.8m at the county level [0]. Which basically prosecution would have double the budget plus the work of the local PDs etc. [0] https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?docid=1NURUkUA8qQXAW-hwtNXRAEks7VHl_iLPCjoVVNE#rows:id=1 https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?docid=1NURUkUA8qQ...
  - Digory 10y ago
    I read your table as 60m in county budgets, and another 16m+ in "other" (which is not necessarily the state budget). So to get the magnitude right, you'd take budgets for police + 75m for prosecutors at the county level, plus the state-level budgets of the Attorney General, Prosecution Services, and the Highway Patrol (which operates as our state police as well as a bureau of investigation). That's not to say that 1:1 parity is necessary or desirable for real justice. But it's misleading to compare just the state level budgets and assume it's even roughly equal.

by NolF 10y ago

dmoy 10y ago

Does a defense attorney get involved much earlier in the process than a prosecutor? If so strict #s of annual budget isn't a fair comparison.

xenadu02 10y ago

If you want to be fair you also need to include all police detectives in the prosecution's headcount, as the police do not and will not assist public defenders in research or evidence gathering. They work only for the prosecution. Public defenders also include the ad litem attorneys for children in family court.

SmellTheGlove 10y ago

Defense takes more resources than prosecution. The prosecution has the relative luxury of the police force doing its investigatory work - hard evidence, witness identification, etc. The defense gets discovery of a lot of that, but also has to do its own investigatory legwork regarding the facts, alibis, exculpatory evidence that wasn't turned over (or not investigated at all), friendly witnesses, etc. To make a 1:1 ratio work, you need to include the police resources used in the prosecution and allocate investigative resources to the public defenders office accordingly. PDs tend to be good lawyers, but you're boned if you need one. Again, it's not the legal skills, it's that they lack the resources to actually dig into your case, and the sorts of people who usually need a PD are also of a socioeconomic status that doesn't have the education or resources to do the legwork.

NolF 10y ago
I followed up on Digory's comment and found prosecution budget has an additional 43.8m from county budgets. And that doesn't account for the efficiencies of the PD doing the investigation work for them... a 1:2 ratio hardly seems just
Fjolsvith 10y ago
Not to mention that the defendant usually cannot do the legwork from inside a cell.
- SmellTheGlove 10y ago
  And the guy that needs the PD probably isn't making bail, either.

Digory 10y ago

It's far more lopsided than it appears in those numbers. In Missouri, most prosecutions are handled by a county's Prosecuting Attorney's office, which are funded by each county's budget (largely property taxes). There are 115 counties, including St. Louis. In larger counties, those offices will have 150 employees and $10 million budgets. The counties sometimes pay for office space for the Public Defender, but they're not paying salaries. The $35 million for Prosecution Services in the state budget is to fund a small office that helps coordinate the county efforts statewide, and helps prosecutors in small counties who are overwhelmed by unexpectedly complex cases. So the $40 million for defense state wide, which will be dwarfed by the combined budgets of the Attorney General and county prosecutors.

NolF 10y ago
That's very informative. I had a quick look online and found a tabulated by county for 2015 prosecution budgets 43.8m at the county level [0]. Which basically prosecution would have double the budget plus the work of the local PDs etc. [0] https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?docid=1NURUkUA8qQXAW-hwtNXRAEks7VHl_iLPCjoVVNE#rows:id=1 https://fusiontables.google.com/DataSource?docid=1NURUkUA8qQ...
- Digory 10y ago
  I read your table as 60m in county budgets, and another 16m+ in "other" (which is not necessarily the state budget). So to get the magnitude right, you'd take budgets for police + 75m for prosecutors at the county level, plus the state-level budgets of the Attorney General, Prosecution Services, and the Highway Patrol (which operates as our state police as well as a bureau of investigation). That's not to say that 1:1 parity is necessary or desirable for real justice. But it's misleading to compare just the state level budgets and assume it's even roughly equal.