5 ms·

I don't get this at all. As developers we should always be looking out for our best interests. If you think you can find something better for more money do it

I don't get this at all. As developers we should always be looking out for our best interests. If you think you can find something better for more money do it. The whole idea of company loyalty is bs in my opinion. They generally aren't loyal to you.

piva00 10y ago
I kinda agree with you on that but there's also another point: when a company hires you it takes some time for you to be really productive, in the meantime you must be a "loss" or just a tad bit of breaking even. From my previous job as a tech lead I've seen this ramp up time taking from 1 month (for a very well defined position with the perfect match) up to 6 months (someone who was curious about a new line of work and had to learn a lot but was a very intelligent person). So of course, company loyalty is bullshit but there's also a point where your contribution almost didn't pay off their effort and money, those are the people I'd avoid hiring. Anywhere after 1 to 1.5 years at the same job and I'd not bat an eye, many experiences lesser than an year would not put me off instantly just by looking at a CV but I'd definitely take more time to discover what happened.
timv 10y ago
Your immediate self interest may not end up being your long term self interest (or it might, I don't profess to be an expert on your career) As a hiring manager it's not in my interest to hire someone who is likely to leave in 6-12 months. If I have a team that is growing, then I am already spending a considerable portion of my time recruiting, I can't afford to have to rehire my whole team every single year. I do want people who have personal drive and high standards - who won't put up with a toxic workplace. So if you've left 1 or 2 places after 6-12 months, then that could be a good sign, and I'll probably get you in for an interview and ask about it. But if you never stay somewhere for more than a year, then I don't like my chances of being the place that breaks the pattern, and it's unlikely that I will bring you in for what is intended to be a permanent position. While I can absolutely understand why someone might want to jump around every 6 months for better pay, don't expect me to sign up to be the next stop on that trip.
lloyd-christmas 10y ago
You're the type of person I don't hire: > As developers Developers aren't special. They are a profession which doesn't even necessitate advanced degrees/certifications like most other high-pay industries (med/law/finance/engineering). This instantly comes across as self-importance. > we should always be looking out for our best interests Sure, but not at the expense of my company. I'm assuming you have some experience based on your commentary. My expectation of a senior dev isn't to just hit keys and write 600 functions before they leave my company. I expect them to make everyone around them better. That doesn't happen if you spend your lunch hours looking for the next job. > The whole idea of company loyalty is bs in my opinion None of this is about company loyalty. It's about hiring useful employees that don't cost you money. Hiring is expensive. A rule of thumb for a medium sized company is that it takes 1 years salary to hire someone worth that salary. So If I'm paying you a salary of $100k, In six months I've actually spent $150k. When you put the numbers on paper, anyone viewing them would call me an idiot.
- angryasian 10y ago
  agree you can replace the word developers with any other term. The difference is that developers are in very high demand right now. We should take advantage of the environment while we can. >not at the expense of my company. I'm sorry, we're all mercenaries for hire. What will you do for me if your company needs to do layoffs or is closing ? Theres more cases where companies hire and layoff fast or screw over employees than those that actually care about the employees. >It's about hiring useful employees that don't cost you money I admit its hard to measure the direct benefit to revenue over those 6 months, but I would argue these figures.
  - lloyd-christmas 10y ago
    > I'm sorry, we're all mercenaries for hire. Most people I know don't have this view. Ask around and you'll be surprised at how few people think this way. You'll probably get this perspective only if your job IS contracting, e.g. designers. > What will you do for me if your company needs to do layoffs or is closing Most companies have some form of severance, and it's typically more than enough to keep you going during your job search. Since you've mentioned how in demand we are, it shouldn't be of any concern. > I would argue these figures. Here's a good read: http://web.mit.edu/e-club/hadzima/pdf/how-much-does-an-employee-cost.pdf http://web.mit.edu/e-club/hadzima/pdf/how-much-does-an-emplo... My father does physician hiring. His costs run 4-5x salary. Lets run some numbers: Imagine I cost my company $50 an hour in salary, and earn them $150 an hour (revenue of 3-5x salary is ballpark for most companies, we'll go for the low end for some perspective). As a senior dev, I have to sit in all the interviews of people potentially joining my team. Imagine we have 10 people that make it through the HR round. I have to participate in 10 interviews, and then likely 3 more for the final round. My cost for round 2 is: 10 people x 2 hours x (150 lost revenue + 50 salary paid) = $4k My cost for round 3 is: 3 x 8 x (150 + 50) = $4.8k My company has already dropped $8.8k on my involvement solely in the interview room for your typical entry level position. This doesn't even include my involvement in onboarding, training, pre-interview prep, post-interview review, etc. This is also JUST ME, and a very lowball figure at that. Now factor in the cost of the HR round, recruiters, background checks, the other devs in the interviews with me, etc. It adds up very, very quickly. Moral of the story: People are expensive and it's really not all that difficult to quantify it.

piva00 10y ago

I kinda agree with you on that but there's also another point: when a company hires you it takes some time for you to be really productive, in the meantime you must be a "loss" or just a tad bit of breaking even. From my previous job as a tech lead I've seen this ramp up time taking from 1 month (for a very well defined position with the perfect match) up to 6 months (someone who was curious about a new line of work and had to learn a lot but was a very intelligent person). So of course, company loyalty is bullshit but there's also a point where your contribution almost didn't pay off their effort and money, those are the people I'd avoid hiring. Anywhere after 1 to 1.5 years at the same job and I'd not bat an eye, many experiences lesser than an year would not put me off instantly just by looking at a CV but I'd definitely take more time to discover what happened.

timv 10y ago

Your immediate self interest may not end up being your long term self interest (or it might, I don't profess to be an expert on your career) As a hiring manager it's not in my interest to hire someone who is likely to leave in 6-12 months. If I have a team that is growing, then I am already spending a considerable portion of my time recruiting, I can't afford to have to rehire my whole team every single year. I do want people who have personal drive and high standards - who won't put up with a toxic workplace. So if you've left 1 or 2 places after 6-12 months, then that could be a good sign, and I'll probably get you in for an interview and ask about it. But if you never stay somewhere for more than a year, then I don't like my chances of being the place that breaks the pattern, and it's unlikely that I will bring you in for what is intended to be a permanent position. While I can absolutely understand why someone might want to jump around every 6 months for better pay, don't expect me to sign up to be the next stop on that trip.

lloyd-christmas 10y ago

You're the type of person I don't hire: > As developers Developers aren't special. They are a profession which doesn't even necessitate advanced degrees/certifications like most other high-pay industries (med/law/finance/engineering). This instantly comes across as self-importance. > we should always be looking out for our best interests Sure, but not at the expense of my company. I'm assuming you have some experience based on your commentary. My expectation of a senior dev isn't to just hit keys and write 600 functions before they leave my company. I expect them to make everyone around them better. That doesn't happen if you spend your lunch hours looking for the next job. > The whole idea of company loyalty is bs in my opinion None of this is about company loyalty. It's about hiring useful employees that don't cost you money. Hiring is expensive. A rule of thumb for a medium sized company is that it takes 1 years salary to hire someone worth that salary. So If I'm paying you a salary of $100k, In six months I've actually spent $150k. When you put the numbers on paper, anyone viewing them would call me an idiot.

angryasian 10y ago
agree you can replace the word developers with any other term. The difference is that developers are in very high demand right now. We should take advantage of the environment while we can. >not at the expense of my company. I'm sorry, we're all mercenaries for hire. What will you do for me if your company needs to do layoffs or is closing ? Theres more cases where companies hire and layoff fast or screw over employees than those that actually care about the employees. >It's about hiring useful employees that don't cost you money I admit its hard to measure the direct benefit to revenue over those 6 months, but I would argue these figures.
- lloyd-christmas 10y ago
  > I'm sorry, we're all mercenaries for hire. Most people I know don't have this view. Ask around and you'll be surprised at how few people think this way. You'll probably get this perspective only if your job IS contracting, e.g. designers. > What will you do for me if your company needs to do layoffs or is closing Most companies have some form of severance, and it's typically more than enough to keep you going during your job search. Since you've mentioned how in demand we are, it shouldn't be of any concern. > I would argue these figures. Here's a good read: http://web.mit.edu/e-club/hadzima/pdf/how-much-does-an-employee-cost.pdf http://web.mit.edu/e-club/hadzima/pdf/how-much-does-an-emplo... My father does physician hiring. His costs run 4-5x salary. Lets run some numbers: Imagine I cost my company $50 an hour in salary, and earn them $150 an hour (revenue of 3-5x salary is ballpark for most companies, we'll go for the low end for some perspective). As a senior dev, I have to sit in all the interviews of people potentially joining my team. Imagine we have 10 people that make it through the HR round. I have to participate in 10 interviews, and then likely 3 more for the final round. My cost for round 2 is: 10 people x 2 hours x (150 lost revenue + 50 salary paid) = $4k My cost for round 3 is: 3 x 8 x (150 + 50) = $4.8k My company has already dropped $8.8k on my involvement solely in the interview room for your typical entry level position. This doesn't even include my involvement in onboarding, training, pre-interview prep, post-interview review, etc. This is also JUST ME, and a very lowball figure at that. Now factor in the cost of the HR round, recruiters, background checks, the other devs in the interviews with me, etc. It adds up very, very quickly. Moral of the story: People are expensive and it's really not all that difficult to quantify it.