6 ms·

After making a reasonable outlay on a watch in a bricks and mortar store recently and then being retargeted aggressively by watch manufacturers on my browser (a

by nstj 10y ago

After making a reasonable outlay on a watch in a bricks and mortar store recently and then being retargeted aggressively by watch manufacturers on my browser (apparently card companies selling purchase history is par for the course) I became rather upset about the whole "we like to track everything you do because advertising" theme of the web. I was recommended and have started using the free "Privacy Badger" Chrome extension from the EFF which is exceptional. The web sans skeezy cookies and 3rd party tracking is a rather different (and enjoyable experience). What's really funny too is that some sites (Bloomberg is an example) simply won't work without all of these nasty trackers switched on.

geoka9 10y ago
How is it possible to connect your browser to a credit card you used at a brick and mortar store?
- walterbell 10y ago
  Data brokers like Axciom collect offline purchase transactions and have partnerships with Facebook, Google and others, http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/14/data-broker-acxiom-moves-to-tie-physical-world-to-online-data/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/14/data-broker-acxiom-mo...
  - pmorici 10y ago
    It doesn't really say how exactly they are linking your real world purchase with your online identity.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    From that link: > The company was censured by Facebook for the practice, which involved pulling data from apps against the social network’s rules. Sounds like they just ran an app and misused the API? Are FB and Google really allowing this kind of stuff? Random companies like United, meh I don't expect them to have much scruples. But Google and FB? Any info on which banks/companies do this? Does it happen with debit cards, too?
    - nstj 10y ago
      > Yes, Your Credit Card Company Is Selling Your Purchase Data To Online Advertisers[0] [0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/credit-cards-sell-purchase-data-to-advertisers-2013-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/credit-cards-sell-purchase-da...
      - MichaelGG 10y ago
        That's not even close. That's CC companies selling aggregated data. That generally won't identify a user, to link their CC purchase of a watch with watch related ads. (Unless they were the only customer in that region.) The link says MasterCard sells info on which ZIP codes have which purchases. That's extremely different than offering a cookie (or somehow identifying) to say "this guy bought a watch".
    - thoughtPolize 10y ago
      clearly you're not familiar with the advertising industry Target was able to use credit card purchase data to find out a girl was pregnant and send out marketing content, before her father knew she was pregnant...back in 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.h...
      - MichaelGG 10y ago
        They used their OWN data. I.e. purchases in their store. They buy other records to supplement. Can you point me to the quote in that article that says Target buys a list of purchases _from other merchants_ via the CC processor?
  - mbesto 10y ago
    IIRC, they effectively hash your credit card name details and match the hash, against your profile in FB/Google/etc.
- yborg 10y ago
  Your CC has a home address. Your ISP geolocates your home connection to that address. You browse from home, everybody at the house now gets advertising tied to the purchase history of any cards with that home address.
- nprescott 10y ago
  It might not be quite so direct, but there are a number of ad-network companies focused on exactly this. It can work like: 1) Sign-up for a "rewards card" or mailing list at a store 2) Use a credit card with that account 3) That account is linked to that card within the network or sold to a network 4) The ad-network profile is then leveraged with a variety of e-commerce sites through cookies and the like 5) Purchases made online with those cookies are linked to purchase histories and profiles You can see how these network profiles are developed and interlinked until "spooky" things start happening. Following a consumer from brick and mortar stores to online is an advertising/e-commerce dream. I know several ad-networks are working towards developing graph databases linking profiles across devices.
- nstj 10y ago
  I always just assumed the card provider put a cookie on your browser when you logged in to their site (to check your bill e.g) and then sold part of this ID with the purchase history. Could be way off here though.
greggman 10y ago
I thought about trying this (virtual cards for all transactions) https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/
- nstj 10y ago
  Good call. Apple Pay has a high level of anonymity too.
- gst 10y ago
  Tried this service and can't recommend in. Actually I'd recommend against using it. Based on my experience a few months ago - not sure if this changed since then: In exchange for providing their virtual credit card they required access to my bank account. This means your username and password as well as all of your verification questions. If you use 2FA they don't support your bank account. I really wanted to use the service so I temporarily disabled 2FA to sign-up and then re-enabled it again afterwards (assuming that they just verify ownership of the bank account once). On the next day I got an email stating that my virtual credit card has been disabled, because they can't login to my bank account anymore. In my opinion this is completely unacceptable. I'm not going to give a credit card provider full access to my bank account.
ansgri 10y ago
This advertising-after-purchase has always seemed stupid to me: after all, you've already got the item. Sure, you may be interested in buying many items of one class (say, you're a watch collector), but delaying ads for several months would be clearly more effective.
- Trundle 10y ago
  I don't see how you can say that it would clearly be more effective when digital advertising is data driven.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    That doesn't mean the conclusions drawn from the data are correct.
  - ansgri 10y ago
    I'd presume measuring effect of several months' delay wold be a nontrivial experiment.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    > digital advertising is data driven Data-driven off the cliff. Keep in mind that most people in marketing are clueless about statistics, scientific method and any kind of rational reasoning. Same is true for their customers. You've got people knowing shit who write reports containing bullshit, which are read by people knowing shit, and since no one can actually verify if any of that is meaningful, everyone is happy and money flows around. And the people making tools for analytics actually exploit that too, since they're in competition with one another (see e.g. popular A/B testing tools encouraging you to reach a wrongful conclusion that your intervention worked - which makes you happier about using the tool). Advertising industry is rotten to the core.
jmspring 10y ago
Use Square for a purchase, card you used before? You get an automatic email receipt. Convenient. What are they selling? Cookies are one avenue, but there are others.
- blackguardx 10y ago
  Only if you previously gave another merchant your email address before.
  - brewdad 10y ago
    But once you've done it, even one time, it will follow you forever. No one can be as diligent 24-7-365 as is necessary to avoid information capture in today's environment.
jodrellblank 10y ago
See also: http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you.... Macek Ceglowski's talk transcript on how internet advertising became more and more intrusive, still doesn't work well, and what we could do about it. And his talk on intrusive spying and advertising which overlaps: http://idlewords.com/talks/internet_with_a_human_face.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/internet_with_a_human_face.htm > Recall that advertising is when someone pays you to tell your users they'll be happy if they buy a product or service. Yahoo is an example of a company that runs on advertising. Gawker is a company that runs on advertising. Investor storytime is when someone pays you to tell them how rich they'll get when you finally put ads on your site. Pinterest is a site that runs on investor storytime. Most startups run on investor storytime. [..] Investor storytime only works if you can argue that advertising in the future is going to be effective and lucrative in ways it just isn't today. If the investors stop believing this, the money will dry up. to make it work, to keep the edifice of promises from tumbling down, companies have to constantly find ways to make advertising more invasive and ubiquitous. And that's the motor destroying our online privacy. [..] We're addicted to 'big data' not because it's effective now, but because we need it to tell better stories. [..] Of course, for ad sellers, the crappiness of targeted ads is a feature! It means there's vast room for improvement. So many stories to tell the investors. This ghost of a business model propels us to ever greater extremes of surveillance. If the algorithms don't work, that's a sign we need more data. If the algorithms do work, then imagine how much better they'll work with more data. There's only one outcome allowed: collect more data.

by nstj 10y ago

geoka9 10y ago

How is it possible to connect your browser to a credit card you used at a brick and mortar store?

walterbell 10y ago
Data brokers like Axciom collect offline purchase transactions and have partnerships with Facebook, Google and others, http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/14/data-broker-acxiom-moves-to-tie-physical-world-to-online-data/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/05/14/data-broker-acxiom-mo...
- pmorici 10y ago
  It doesn't really say how exactly they are linking your real world purchase with your online identity.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  From that link: > The company was censured by Facebook for the practice, which involved pulling data from apps against the social network’s rules. Sounds like they just ran an app and misused the API? Are FB and Google really allowing this kind of stuff? Random companies like United, meh I don't expect them to have much scruples. But Google and FB? Any info on which banks/companies do this? Does it happen with debit cards, too?
  - nstj 10y ago
    > Yes, Your Credit Card Company Is Selling Your Purchase Data To Online Advertisers[0] [0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/credit-cards-sell-purchase-data-to-advertisers-2013-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/credit-cards-sell-purchase-da...
    - MichaelGG 10y ago
      That's not even close. That's CC companies selling aggregated data. That generally won't identify a user, to link their CC purchase of a watch with watch related ads. (Unless they were the only customer in that region.) The link says MasterCard sells info on which ZIP codes have which purchases. That's extremely different than offering a cookie (or somehow identifying) to say "this guy bought a watch".
  - thoughtPolize 10y ago
    clearly you're not familiar with the advertising industry Target was able to use credit card purchase data to find out a girl was pregnant and send out marketing content, before her father knew she was pregnant...back in 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.h...
    - MichaelGG 10y ago
      They used their OWN data. I.e. purchases in their store. They buy other records to supplement. Can you point me to the quote in that article that says Target buys a list of purchases _from other merchants_ via the CC processor?
- mbesto 10y ago
  IIRC, they effectively hash your credit card name details and match the hash, against your profile in FB/Google/etc.
yborg 10y ago
Your CC has a home address. Your ISP geolocates your home connection to that address. You browse from home, everybody at the house now gets advertising tied to the purchase history of any cards with that home address.
nprescott 10y ago
It might not be quite so direct, but there are a number of ad-network companies focused on exactly this. It can work like: 1) Sign-up for a "rewards card" or mailing list at a store 2) Use a credit card with that account 3) That account is linked to that card within the network or sold to a network 4) The ad-network profile is then leveraged with a variety of e-commerce sites through cookies and the like 5) Purchases made online with those cookies are linked to purchase histories and profiles You can see how these network profiles are developed and interlinked until "spooky" things start happening. Following a consumer from brick and mortar stores to online is an advertising/e-commerce dream. I know several ad-networks are working towards developing graph databases linking profiles across devices.
nstj 10y ago
I always just assumed the card provider put a cookie on your browser when you logged in to their site (to check your bill e.g) and then sold part of this ID with the purchase history. Could be way off here though.

greggman 10y ago

I thought about trying this (virtual cards for all transactions) https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/

nstj 10y ago
Good call. Apple Pay has a high level of anonymity too.
gst 10y ago
Tried this service and can't recommend in. Actually I'd recommend against using it. Based on my experience a few months ago - not sure if this changed since then: In exchange for providing their virtual credit card they required access to my bank account. This means your username and password as well as all of your verification questions. If you use 2FA they don't support your bank account. I really wanted to use the service so I temporarily disabled 2FA to sign-up and then re-enabled it again afterwards (assuming that they just verify ownership of the bank account once). On the next day I got an email stating that my virtual credit card has been disabled, because they can't login to my bank account anymore. In my opinion this is completely unacceptable. I'm not going to give a credit card provider full access to my bank account.

ansgri 10y ago

This advertising-after-purchase has always seemed stupid to me: after all, you've already got the item. Sure, you may be interested in buying many items of one class (say, you're a watch collector), but delaying ads for several months would be clearly more effective.

Trundle 10y ago
I don't see how you can say that it would clearly be more effective when digital advertising is data driven.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  That doesn't mean the conclusions drawn from the data are correct.
- ansgri 10y ago
  I'd presume measuring effect of several months' delay wold be a nontrivial experiment.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > digital advertising is data driven Data-driven off the cliff. Keep in mind that most people in marketing are clueless about statistics, scientific method and any kind of rational reasoning. Same is true for their customers. You've got people knowing shit who write reports containing bullshit, which are read by people knowing shit, and since no one can actually verify if any of that is meaningful, everyone is happy and money flows around. And the people making tools for analytics actually exploit that too, since they're in competition with one another (see e.g. popular A/B testing tools encouraging you to reach a wrongful conclusion that your intervention worked - which makes you happier about using the tool). Advertising industry is rotten to the core.

jmspring 10y ago

Use Square for a purchase, card you used before? You get an automatic email receipt. Convenient. What are they selling? Cookies are one avenue, but there are others.

blackguardx 10y ago
Only if you previously gave another merchant your email address before.
- brewdad 10y ago
  But once you've done it, even one time, it will follow you forever. No one can be as diligent 24-7-365 as is necessary to avoid information capture in today's environment.

jodrellblank 10y ago

See also: http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/what_happens_next_will_amaze_you.... Macek Ceglowski's talk transcript on how internet advertising became more and more intrusive, still doesn't work well, and what we could do about it. And his talk on intrusive spying and advertising which overlaps: http://idlewords.com/talks/internet_with_a_human_face.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/internet_with_a_human_face.htm > Recall that advertising is when someone pays you to tell your users they'll be happy if they buy a product or service. Yahoo is an example of a company that runs on advertising. Gawker is a company that runs on advertising. Investor storytime is when someone pays you to tell them how rich they'll get when you finally put ads on your site. Pinterest is a site that runs on investor storytime. Most startups run on investor storytime. [..] Investor storytime only works if you can argue that advertising in the future is going to be effective and lucrative in ways it just isn't today. If the investors stop believing this, the money will dry up. to make it work, to keep the edifice of promises from tumbling down, companies have to constantly find ways to make advertising more invasive and ubiquitous. And that's the motor destroying our online privacy. [..] We're addicted to 'big data' not because it's effective now, but because we need it to tell better stories. [..] Of course, for ad sellers, the crappiness of targeted ads is a feature! It means there's vast room for improvement. So many stories to tell the investors. This ghost of a business model propels us to ever greater extremes of surveillance. If the algorithms don't work, that's a sign we need more data. If the algorithms do work, then imagine how much better they'll work with more data. There's only one outcome allowed: collect more data.