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I've found that the type of person who "[doesn't] put up with crappy work environments" is often the type of person who finds all sorts of perfectly fine work e

I've found that the type of person who "[doesn't] put up with crappy work environments" is often the type of person who finds all sorts of perfectly fine work environments to be crappy.

flukus 10y ago
I'm that person. For me it's the code quality, attitude and direction that matter the most. There is an awful lot of terrible code out there and an awful lot of companies that are either oblivious to it or lying about it until post hire. I can handle terrible code, but if there isn't a solid plan in place to improve it for whatever reason (or if it's getting worse) then I'm out of there.
- jimmaswell 10y ago
  Personally, I don't foresee caring this much about the quality of the codebase I'm hired onto, the direction of the projects, etc. as long as I'm getting paid for it.
- MyNameIsFred 10y ago
  So you're an example. What's your rate of job turnover with a policy like that?
  - flukus 10y ago
    It varies from years to months/weeks, although a lot of the months ones were contract jobs. My longest stint was 3-4 years, which I only left because I relocated. The shortest is weeks, this is at places that have mountains of technical debt as well as other problems, like managers that don't understand the limitations of that technical debt and want everything done yesterday. The last job was 18 months. despite a lot of bad code I had a free hand to add gradual improvements. The current one is looking to be considerably shorter.
- abawany 10y ago
  I can empathize. You have one life to live so why be miserable? When a company's management disrespects its talent by imposing on them one or more of bad processes, malicious and/or incompetent minders, poor technology, and other non-technical obstacles, you enable and enforce this behavior by staying. There is only so much one can ask before accepting an offer, especially when some have no problems with lying. I resent the implication that I must agree to be voluntarily Shanghai-ed by the omnipotent employer for fear that I turn off some nebulous good prospect down the road. I hope the people who I encounter in desirable employment situations in the future evaluate history individually vs. do the whiteboard-interview lazy equivalent.
- quantumhobbit 10y ago
  Some people just have lower bullshit thresholds. A wise manager can listen to what you are complaining about and use people like you to clean up a lot of the crap that accumulates in all technical organizations. Sadly lots of places would just label you not a team player for complaining about the lack version control or whatever. This is when it is smart to switch jobs even if it has only been 6 months. There are a two devs who fit this mold a my current job. They bounced from job to job until finally landing here for 2-3 years so far with no sign of leaving. They complain constantly and are honestly a bit annoying but are super productive. The changes they make have made hundreds of other devs more productive which more than makes up for the occasional bad attitude. The key is that they don't cross the line into being jerks, more curmudgeons than assholes.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  > There is an awful lot of terrible code out there There's also a lot of finicky people that think good code is only if it matches exactly their preferences Also they're usually prone to believing Uncle Bob BS

I've found that the type of person who "[doesn't] put up with crappy work environments" is often the type of person who finds all sorts of perfectly fine work environments to be crappy.

flukus 10y ago

I'm that person. For me it's the code quality, attitude and direction that matter the most. There is an awful lot of terrible code out there and an awful lot of companies that are either oblivious to it or lying about it until post hire. I can handle terrible code, but if there isn't a solid plan in place to improve it for whatever reason (or if it's getting worse) then I'm out of there.

jimmaswell 10y ago
Personally, I don't foresee caring this much about the quality of the codebase I'm hired onto, the direction of the projects, etc. as long as I'm getting paid for it.
MyNameIsFred 10y ago
So you're an example. What's your rate of job turnover with a policy like that?
- flukus 10y ago
  It varies from years to months/weeks, although a lot of the months ones were contract jobs. My longest stint was 3-4 years, which I only left because I relocated. The shortest is weeks, this is at places that have mountains of technical debt as well as other problems, like managers that don't understand the limitations of that technical debt and want everything done yesterday. The last job was 18 months. despite a lot of bad code I had a free hand to add gradual improvements. The current one is looking to be considerably shorter.
abawany 10y ago
I can empathize. You have one life to live so why be miserable? When a company's management disrespects its talent by imposing on them one or more of bad processes, malicious and/or incompetent minders, poor technology, and other non-technical obstacles, you enable and enforce this behavior by staying. There is only so much one can ask before accepting an offer, especially when some have no problems with lying. I resent the implication that I must agree to be voluntarily Shanghai-ed by the omnipotent employer for fear that I turn off some nebulous good prospect down the road. I hope the people who I encounter in desirable employment situations in the future evaluate history individually vs. do the whiteboard-interview lazy equivalent.
quantumhobbit 10y ago
Some people just have lower bullshit thresholds. A wise manager can listen to what you are complaining about and use people like you to clean up a lot of the crap that accumulates in all technical organizations. Sadly lots of places would just label you not a team player for complaining about the lack version control or whatever. This is when it is smart to switch jobs even if it has only been 6 months. There are a two devs who fit this mold a my current job. They bounced from job to job until finally landing here for 2-3 years so far with no sign of leaving. They complain constantly and are honestly a bit annoying but are super productive. The changes they make have made hundreds of other devs more productive which more than makes up for the occasional bad attitude. The key is that they don't cross the line into being jerks, more curmudgeons than assholes.
raverbashing 10y ago
> There is an awful lot of terrible code out there There's also a lot of finicky people that think good code is only if it matches exactly their preferences Also they're usually prone to believing Uncle Bob BS