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If you read the history, the form of government the US has failed and failed and failed while trying it the way you describe. The US was on the verge of collaps

by Mz 10y ago

If you read the history, the form of government the US has failed and failed and failed while trying it the way you describe. The US was on the verge of collapse when it re-arranged things a bit and handed over more power to the federal government. That's why the country still exists. In its earliest days, it was in danger of collapse just like every other state that had attempted the same kind of organization. If we take away the federal government power to a) raise money and b) keep a standing army we will likely see this country destroyed in short order, whether from within or from without. Quite a few countries would be thrilled to pieces if we hamstrung our federal government so they could invade and do as they please.

matt_wulfeck 10y ago
This country seems quite capable of destroying itself in short order regardless. Now we have unstoppable constitutional rights abuses and endless drone wars in far away lands. Not to mention a lobbying apparatus that can concentrate "donations" to less and less people to get its way.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
true_religion 10y ago
Which time period specifically are you talking about?
- Mz 10y ago
  The US was originally founded as a Confederation: http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/am_rev_timeline.htm http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/am_rev_ti... http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/confed.htm http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/confed.h... This emphasized state powers. The central government was extremely weak. The constitution came about in 1887, more than a decade later, strengthening the central government. http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/creating-new-government/essays/creating-new-government http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/creating-new-gov... http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/1700_1800_timeline.htm http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/1700_1800... The initial form of government under which the US was formed was a confederation of independent nation-states. This form of government never survived long and the newly born country was foundering until they made some critical adjustments, thereby strengthening the central government. I am not going to research this further. Off the top of my head, the central government initially lacked teeth in terms of ability to a) raise money and b) raise an army. This was threatening to cause the entire thing to collapse until the form of government was fundamentally altered. The confederation was put to an end when we ratified the constitution, iirc. We are talking about very early American history, if that helps.
  - true_religion 10y ago
    Thanks. It looks like you were mixing up two different time periods then. The US income tax was only ratified in 1913, which would put its creation to just a year before World War 1. So the US "survived" just about 124 years of modern civilisation without an income tax. I don't realistically think that anyone is talking about returning to the days of the "Confederacy" that lasted what 2-3 years back in the 1700s, but the fact of the matter is that you have a lot of latitude in how you can separate powers between different governmental bodies and not collapse as a country. If you were to replace the direct federal income tax with a levee on individual states (whom then go on to decide how and when to tax their residents), I doubt the government will 'collapse'. Now to be fair, the US is a lot more decentralised than many European countries yet it is still more centralised than its northern neighbour Canada.
    - Mz 10y ago
      No, I am not mixing up anything. You and I are just focused on different pieces of the GP statement. Suggesting, as you are, that things could be monetized differently is a rather different position from decrying the role the federal government plays and actively advocating for essentially hamstringing it.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > The US income tax was only ratified in 1913, which would put its creation to just a year before World War 1. The US had an income tax before that. What was ratified was a Constitutional amendment giving the federal government plenary and independent power to levy an income tax.

by Mz 10y ago

matt_wulfeck 10y ago

This country seems quite capable of destroying itself in short order regardless. Now we have unstoppable constitutional rights abuses and endless drone wars in far away lands. Not to mention a lobbying apparatus that can concentrate "donations" to less and less people to get its way.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

true_religion 10y ago

Which time period specifically are you talking about?

Mz 10y ago
The US was originally founded as a Confederation: http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/am_rev_timeline.htm http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/am_rev_ti... http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/confed.htm http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/confed.h... This emphasized state powers. The central government was extremely weak. The constitution came about in 1887, more than a decade later, strengthening the central government. http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/creating-new-government/essays/creating-new-government http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/creating-new-gov... http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/1700_1800_timeline.htm http://faculty.washington.edu/qtaylor/a_us_history/1700_1800... The initial form of government under which the US was formed was a confederation of independent nation-states. This form of government never survived long and the newly born country was foundering until they made some critical adjustments, thereby strengthening the central government. I am not going to research this further. Off the top of my head, the central government initially lacked teeth in terms of ability to a) raise money and b) raise an army. This was threatening to cause the entire thing to collapse until the form of government was fundamentally altered. The confederation was put to an end when we ratified the constitution, iirc. We are talking about very early American history, if that helps.
- true_religion 10y ago
  Thanks. It looks like you were mixing up two different time periods then. The US income tax was only ratified in 1913, which would put its creation to just a year before World War 1. So the US "survived" just about 124 years of modern civilisation without an income tax. I don't realistically think that anyone is talking about returning to the days of the "Confederacy" that lasted what 2-3 years back in the 1700s, but the fact of the matter is that you have a lot of latitude in how you can separate powers between different governmental bodies and not collapse as a country. If you were to replace the direct federal income tax with a levee on individual states (whom then go on to decide how and when to tax their residents), I doubt the government will 'collapse'. Now to be fair, the US is a lot more decentralised than many European countries yet it is still more centralised than its northern neighbour Canada.
  - Mz 10y ago
    No, I am not mixing up anything. You and I are just focused on different pieces of the GP statement. Suggesting, as you are, that things could be monetized differently is a rather different position from decrying the role the federal government plays and actively advocating for essentially hamstringing it.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > The US income tax was only ratified in 1913, which would put its creation to just a year before World War 1. The US had an income tax before that. What was ratified was a Constitutional amendment giving the federal government plenary and independent power to levy an income tax.