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Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However, the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as neg

Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However, the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as negative points in the US. He used the homelessness, drug use and mental illness along with the general dirtiness of the streets of SF. My point was a direct counter to that, that while the US has a problem with homelessness, China averts that problem through forced labor, incarceration etc. Now, were he to say "the United States has a huge problem with militarization and I dislike this" I would have countered with China's behavior in the South China Sea as a counterpoint demonstrating aggression on the part of the PRC Would he have mentioned incarceration, I would have brought up the house arrests and indefinite detention of journalists and political opponents to the Communist party. I could go on. Great, China is working on pollution, but don't for a minute think this is due to global climate change, rather their citizens are dying due to the pollution. Motivations aside, good on them for taking a lead. And really, that is a poor excuse. Because China is in the midst of an economic Renaissance they are excused from the basic tenants of human rights? Of a free people? By the same argument, slavery was a-ok during the early years of the United States. But I reject that terrible ethical relativism and insist that slavery was as wrong then as it now, and so are the abuses that the PRC commits upon its own people.

uola 10y ago
You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any critique of the US with something that is worse in China.
- salmon30salmon 10y ago
  Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the United States. I won't take that away from China. You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city seems to have less of a homelessness problem. At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to rebuke those points with some counter examples. Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.
  - kkarakk 10y ago
    >Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes this is so true. not only for china but for technologists who find success anywhere except the US. either it is a self-assuaging tactic or it's creating noise to convince people on the fence to move to what is _perceived_ as a worse place to live(beijing in this case)
  - uola 10y ago
    I understand your point it's just not very interesting. This is why people don't want to go to the US, because it's an ecochamber of generic opinions that doesn't listen to anyone else. The US used to be a place where people would arrive with only the money in their wallet and fight their way to the the top. Today your asked to pay 4k a month to live in a suburban hellhole and suck up to investors.
    - salmon30salmon 10y ago
      I know its an age old internet adage to not feed the trolls.. How am I not listening to his opinion? Or yours, if I were so kind as to categorize as such. I conceded that China has many strengths, many of which the US can learn from. How is that an echo chamber? And I do so deeply apologize if you find my opinion "uninteresting" as if one of the prime forces for an opinion is how spicy it is. I will continue to expound my "uninteresting" opinions which are backed by "boring" facts and "generic" lived experiences. Meanwhile, you can place value on how exciting an opinion is. Agreed?
      - uola 10y ago
        Your opinions aren't uninteresting because they aren't spicy, but because they offer no value. You're in the company of people who spent years in Asia and other parts of the world running businesses, conferences and making deals. Yet, you focus on the lowest level of discussion. It's the "me, me, me" attitude so common in places like SV. You assume no one else know what you know because you read some Wikipedia article. Everything you talk about like social problems, privilege or censorship is completely apparent to anyone who ever set foot in China. People are there despite these problems not because they are unaware. People don't bring up US flaws because this is some country competition were you should keep score, but so you can understand that you value certain things and ignore others. Just like anyone else, including Chinese people. The world is mostly the same.

uola 10y ago

You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any critique of the US with something that is worse in China.

salmon30salmon 10y ago
Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the United States. I won't take that away from China. You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city seems to have less of a homelessness problem. At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to rebuke those points with some counter examples. Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.
- kkarakk 10y ago
  >Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes this is so true. not only for china but for technologists who find success anywhere except the US. either it is a self-assuaging tactic or it's creating noise to convince people on the fence to move to what is _perceived_ as a worse place to live(beijing in this case)
- uola 10y ago
  I understand your point it's just not very interesting. This is why people don't want to go to the US, because it's an ecochamber of generic opinions that doesn't listen to anyone else. The US used to be a place where people would arrive with only the money in their wallet and fight their way to the the top. Today your asked to pay 4k a month to live in a suburban hellhole and suck up to investors.
  - salmon30salmon 10y ago
    I know its an age old internet adage to not feed the trolls.. How am I not listening to his opinion? Or yours, if I were so kind as to categorize as such. I conceded that China has many strengths, many of which the US can learn from. How is that an echo chamber? And I do so deeply apologize if you find my opinion "uninteresting" as if one of the prime forces for an opinion is how spicy it is. I will continue to expound my "uninteresting" opinions which are backed by "boring" facts and "generic" lived experiences. Meanwhile, you can place value on how exciting an opinion is. Agreed?
    - uola 10y ago
      Your opinions aren't uninteresting because they aren't spicy, but because they offer no value. You're in the company of people who spent years in Asia and other parts of the world running businesses, conferences and making deals. Yet, you focus on the lowest level of discussion. It's the "me, me, me" attitude so common in places like SV. You assume no one else know what you know because you read some Wikipedia article. Everything you talk about like social problems, privilege or censorship is completely apparent to anyone who ever set foot in China. People are there despite these problems not because they are unaware. People don't bring up US flaws because this is some country competition were you should keep score, but so you can understand that you value certain things and ignore others. Just like anyone else, including Chinese people. The world is mostly the same.