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Then you read another article than me. He acknowledged that China had real problems and was not any better than the US. His point was that China was moving some

Then you read another article than me. He acknowledged that China had real problems and was not any better than the US. His point was that China was moving somewhere. That is a point I can relate to, because it seems like America isn't even trying to solve its problems. Pollution is a great point. No doubt China is far more polluted than America today. So it is far worse. However China has a much grander goals and incentives for change. They put in place stricter emission standards for new cars. They invest very heavily in renewable energy to the point where most solar cells today are made in China. They acknowledge they have a serious problem. In contrast in America a large fraction of the population are disputing that there even is a problem to begin with. This attitude mirrors the other state affairs in China and the US. American conservatives blame poor people for their problems. They didn't work hard enough, didn't get an education, have the wrong attitude or whatever. China at least accepts that poverty is a problem. But they have to fight epidemic corruption and many other on problems on many fronts. China no doubt is a dictatorship. But it is also a developing country. I can't see the justification for America being a de-facto police state. No western nation has as draconian punishment, no nation locks up as many people or has as militarized police. So there is no reason to be smug towards China.

salmon30salmon 10y ago
Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However, the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as negative points in the US. He used the homelessness, drug use and mental illness along with the general dirtiness of the streets of SF. My point was a direct counter to that, that while the US has a problem with homelessness, China averts that problem through forced labor, incarceration etc. Now, were he to say "the United States has a huge problem with militarization and I dislike this" I would have countered with China's behavior in the South China Sea as a counterpoint demonstrating aggression on the part of the PRC Would he have mentioned incarceration, I would have brought up the house arrests and indefinite detention of journalists and political opponents to the Communist party. I could go on. Great, China is working on pollution, but don't for a minute think this is due to global climate change, rather their citizens are dying due to the pollution. Motivations aside, good on them for taking a lead. And really, that is a poor excuse. Because China is in the midst of an economic Renaissance they are excused from the basic tenants of human rights? Of a free people? By the same argument, slavery was a-ok during the early years of the United States. But I reject that terrible ethical relativism and insist that slavery was as wrong then as it now, and so are the abuses that the PRC commits upon its own people.
- uola 10y ago
  You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any critique of the US with something that is worse in China.
  - salmon30salmon 10y ago
    Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the United States. I won't take that away from China. You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city seems to have less of a homelessness problem. At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to rebuke those points with some counter examples. Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.
    - kkarakk 10y ago
      >Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes this is so true. not only for china but for technologists who find success anywhere except the US. either it is a self-assuaging tactic or it's creating noise to convince people on the fence to move to what is _perceived_ as a worse place to live(beijing in this case)
    - uola 10y ago
      I understand your point it's just not very interesting. This is why people don't want to go to the US, because it's an ecochamber of generic opinions that doesn't listen to anyone else. The US used to be a place where people would arrive with only the money in their wallet and fight their way to the the top. Today your asked to pay 4k a month to live in a suburban hellhole and suck up to investors.
zhemao 10y ago
> His point was that China was moving somewhere Oh, it's moving somewhere alright. Whether it's in a good or bad direction is highly contestable. It's easy to take bold and decisive action if you don't have to worry about things like public opinion and democratic consensus. > American conservatives blame poor people for their problems. They didn't work hard enough, didn't get an education, have the wrong attitude or whatever. You haven't talked to many Chinese have you? This is a pretty common attitude in China, too. If you think Americans are self-centered, you haven't been to a country where "to get rich is glorious".

salmon30salmon 10y ago

Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However, the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as negative points in the US. He used the homelessness, drug use and mental illness along with the general dirtiness of the streets of SF. My point was a direct counter to that, that while the US has a problem with homelessness, China averts that problem through forced labor, incarceration etc. Now, were he to say "the United States has a huge problem with militarization and I dislike this" I would have countered with China's behavior in the South China Sea as a counterpoint demonstrating aggression on the part of the PRC Would he have mentioned incarceration, I would have brought up the house arrests and indefinite detention of journalists and political opponents to the Communist party. I could go on. Great, China is working on pollution, but don't for a minute think this is due to global climate change, rather their citizens are dying due to the pollution. Motivations aside, good on them for taking a lead. And really, that is a poor excuse. Because China is in the midst of an economic Renaissance they are excused from the basic tenants of human rights? Of a free people? By the same argument, slavery was a-ok during the early years of the United States. But I reject that terrible ethical relativism and insist that slavery was as wrong then as it now, and so are the abuses that the PRC commits upon its own people.

uola 10y ago
You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any critique of the US with something that is worse in China.
- salmon30salmon 10y ago
  Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the United States. I won't take that away from China. You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city seems to have less of a homelessness problem. At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to rebuke those points with some counter examples. Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.
  - kkarakk 10y ago
    >Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes this is so true. not only for china but for technologists who find success anywhere except the US. either it is a self-assuaging tactic or it's creating noise to convince people on the fence to move to what is _perceived_ as a worse place to live(beijing in this case)
  - uola 10y ago
    I understand your point it's just not very interesting. This is why people don't want to go to the US, because it's an ecochamber of generic opinions that doesn't listen to anyone else. The US used to be a place where people would arrive with only the money in their wallet and fight their way to the the top. Today your asked to pay 4k a month to live in a suburban hellhole and suck up to investors.

zhemao 10y ago

> His point was that China was moving somewhere Oh, it's moving somewhere alright. Whether it's in a good or bad direction is highly contestable. It's easy to take bold and decisive action if you don't have to worry about things like public opinion and democratic consensus. > American conservatives blame poor people for their problems. They didn't work hard enough, didn't get an education, have the wrong attitude or whatever. You haven't talked to many Chinese have you? This is a pretty common attitude in China, too. If you think Americans are self-centered, you haven't been to a country where "to get rich is glorious".