5 ms·

Most start ups really want people in early 20's, Unmarried without responsibilities, who have a very idealistic view of the world and are ready to fail, without

by kamaal 10y ago

Most start ups really want people in early 20's, Unmarried without responsibilities, who have a very idealistic view of the world and are ready to fail, without any financial profit in return. >>stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews" Unless you are in "exam mode" all the time. Spending away all your life in the pursuit of the interview preparation. This kind of interview preparedness isn't possible anyway.

vvanders 10y ago
That seems to be common in other high-churn areas of the industry as well, ex: GameDev.
jasoncchild 10y ago
^yes. when an early-stage startup (seed or just hit series a) emphasizes that they are a 'family' this is not quite accurate. yes, caring and support abounds, but its not so much a family as a group of friends...and like every group of friends when you can't hang at the bar until closing a few nights a week or spend a weekend 'adventure camping' the group just stops inviting you. quickly you lose sync, don't get the in-jokes and most importantly you lose value in the eyes of the group. 'oh, she/he used to be cool, but they just don't hang anymore'. when it comes to work this has a very destructive effect. team-building exercises that require people to choose between spending time with their families and participating are, in my opinion, at the least cruel and at the most nefariously aimed at driving a culture wedge between you and the company. your children only grow up once. no second chances. your elderly parents deterioration and eventual death only happens once. no second chances. most of us will work the majority of our lives, occupying several roles at more than one company. in my mind this amounts to numerous 'chances' to do things better/differently/more carefully/more thoughtfully/ etc etc etc.
mholmes680 10y ago
To his credit, I had a (rather eccentric) founder in NYC ask me if I planned on having kids anytime soon as the first question of his interview - after all the tech questions from people under him. When I said yeah, and I was planning on commuting from NJ, he said "well I don't want to break up a family, so see you later" <end of interview>. I thought it was rude at the time, but here I am 3 years later and damn if he wasn't right. Dodged a bullet that only he saw was coming right at me.
- mandevil 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure that in the US that question is illegal to ask an interviewee. It might have been beneficial in your case, but is still totally illegal because it is one of the ways the sexual discrimination in hiring propagates.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > I'm pretty sure that in the US that question is illegal to ask an interviewee. It is not. (Like most questions that people think are illegal to ask in interviews, its merely ill-advised to ask because it asks specifically about something on which it is illegal to discriminate in hiring, and asking about it in an interview is -- on its own, weak, but still -- potential evidence of its use in a hiring decision.) (Cargo cult HR helps perpetuate the myth that these things are illegal to ask.)
    - voltagex_ 10y ago
      That might be the first example I've heard of positive cargo-culting.
    - mandevil 10y ago
      Okay, it might not necessarily be illegal in the general case, but in the specific case described by the OP, asking that question, getting an answer, and then saying "See you later <eom>" makes it clear that that was discrimination in the hiring process based on family responsibilities, no?
    - dmoy 10y ago
      It's not illegal but it opens many very wide doors for lawsuits.
fibonachos 10y ago
As a long time independent consultant looking for a regular 9 to 5 job, my recent interview experiences would be consistent with this statement. After a series of phone interviews and a 4 hour on-site, all of which yielded positive feedback, I was told the position went to someone "more passionate" about the company mission. After reflecting a bit on what I may have done or said wrong, it hit me. This place had the typical startup perks: catered lunches, stocked kitchen (with plenty of energy drinks), and a younger demographic (I'm 40). My conclusion is that "More Passionate" is actually code for "willing to work 14 hour days."
jpindar 10y ago
And what if I'm past my 20's, but still unmarried with no responsibilities and I love pulling all nighters and am willing to work long hours for relatively low pay? There's no real way to tell potential employers that, is there?

by kamaal 10y ago

vvanders 10y ago

That seems to be common in other high-churn areas of the industry as well, ex: GameDev.

jasoncchild 10y ago

^yes. when an early-stage startup (seed or just hit series a) emphasizes that they are a 'family' this is not quite accurate. yes, caring and support abounds, but its not so much a family as a group of friends...and like every group of friends when you can't hang at the bar until closing a few nights a week or spend a weekend 'adventure camping' the group just stops inviting you. quickly you lose sync, don't get the in-jokes and most importantly you lose value in the eyes of the group. 'oh, she/he used to be cool, but they just don't hang anymore'. when it comes to work this has a very destructive effect. team-building exercises that require people to choose between spending time with their families and participating are, in my opinion, at the least cruel and at the most nefariously aimed at driving a culture wedge between you and the company. your children only grow up once. no second chances. your elderly parents deterioration and eventual death only happens once. no second chances. most of us will work the majority of our lives, occupying several roles at more than one company. in my mind this amounts to numerous 'chances' to do things better/differently/more carefully/more thoughtfully/ etc etc etc.

mholmes680 10y ago

To his credit, I had a (rather eccentric) founder in NYC ask me if I planned on having kids anytime soon as the first question of his interview - after all the tech questions from people under him. When I said yeah, and I was planning on commuting from NJ, he said "well I don't want to break up a family, so see you later" <end of interview>. I thought it was rude at the time, but here I am 3 years later and damn if he wasn't right. Dodged a bullet that only he saw was coming right at me.

mandevil 10y ago
I'm pretty sure that in the US that question is illegal to ask an interviewee. It might have been beneficial in your case, but is still totally illegal because it is one of the ways the sexual discrimination in hiring propagates.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > I'm pretty sure that in the US that question is illegal to ask an interviewee. It is not. (Like most questions that people think are illegal to ask in interviews, its merely ill-advised to ask because it asks specifically about something on which it is illegal to discriminate in hiring, and asking about it in an interview is -- on its own, weak, but still -- potential evidence of its use in a hiring decision.) (Cargo cult HR helps perpetuate the myth that these things are illegal to ask.)
  - voltagex_ 10y ago
    That might be the first example I've heard of positive cargo-culting.
  - mandevil 10y ago
    Okay, it might not necessarily be illegal in the general case, but in the specific case described by the OP, asking that question, getting an answer, and then saying "See you later <eom>" makes it clear that that was discrimination in the hiring process based on family responsibilities, no?
  - dmoy 10y ago
    It's not illegal but it opens many very wide doors for lawsuits.

fibonachos 10y ago

As a long time independent consultant looking for a regular 9 to 5 job, my recent interview experiences would be consistent with this statement. After a series of phone interviews and a 4 hour on-site, all of which yielded positive feedback, I was told the position went to someone "more passionate" about the company mission. After reflecting a bit on what I may have done or said wrong, it hit me. This place had the typical startup perks: catered lunches, stocked kitchen (with plenty of energy drinks), and a younger demographic (I'm 40). My conclusion is that "More Passionate" is actually code for "willing to work 14 hour days."

jpindar 10y ago

And what if I'm past my 20's, but still unmarried with no responsibilities and I love pulling all nighters and am willing to work long hours for relatively low pay? There's no real way to tell potential employers that, is there?