7 ms·

The message is loud and clear for senior engineers (10+ years experience): startups don't want you. They may say they do, but they really don't. And the messa

The message is loud and clear for senior engineers (10+ years experience): startups don't want you. They may say they do, but they really don't. And the message from SV big tech is also clear: we don't want you unless you're in the inner club (Google, FB, Amazon, etc.) The solution is to avoid these companies. There's a huge world outside SV. These may be known as "boring" (banks, insurance, etc.) but they will not have the stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews". And they respect experience. And they won't have an ageist culture, it will be ok to go home early and be with family.

Periodic 10y ago
If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club? I used to work at Google and I did a lot of interviews. I loved when we finally got an experienced engineer in to interview. I could stop asking the toy algorithms questions and actually talk about design. But maybe they only want to hire fresh college grads? The company is sorely lacking in experience. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they can't find experienced engineers to interview is that everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to. Maybe you're in that camp of not wanting to work at Google. That's fine. I enjoyed it for a while but it wasn't for me. Just having it on my resume has opened a lot of doors.
- gedy 10y ago
  Interviewing at Google a few years ago (with some experience) was not positive - the interviewer actively avoided talking anything about design or systems, and insisted on asking me brain teasers about weighing boxes of pennies, etc. Was a stupid waste of time for me and turned me off from Google totally.
  - ruste 10y ago
    I think I'd actually prefer that...
    - gedy 10y ago
      It wasn't just the type of questions, was the whole experience - I did answer, then then interviewer insisted I could do it in one fewer step, and would not proceed or assist until I came up with a better answer. Then time was up, and he answered no questions of mine. Emailing the recruiter to ask if this was expected or if there was another role and received no replies back. Sorry, but to hell with working for Google after that... Bear in mind at the time I had 8 years experience in non-trivial roles, including some mgmt and architecture, and they were the ones who reached out to me.
      - mgkimsal 10y ago
        > and they were the ones who reached out to me. I had a google recruiter call, we spoke, then set up a longer interview. I asked about pay, and was told they don't talk about it until after an interview, which meant travel and time away from current projects. It's not that I couldn't do it at all, but it meant some schedule shuffling and I wanted a ballpark - just a ballpark or ...minimum floor. She wouldn't give me any info. I then asked another question which she didn't know the answer to ("no one's ever asked that before!") and told me she'd have an answer in a couple days. That was ... Aug 2013? I'm still waiting. I told the story before and someone said "well, that's no way to get a job!" as I described my questioning the recruiter. "I didn't apply for a job - they called me - they can answer a couple of my questions if they want me to take time out to come visit them".
        rubberstamp 10y ago
        can you please share what that question was? just curious. I've read many other articles about candidates having had similar experiences. Its one of the reasons i dont like Google as a company
        mgkimsal 10y ago
        role was developer evangelist. she mentioned bonuses were based on performance review, and I asked what the metrics were. how did they measure the 'success' of a developer evangelist? number of presentations? blog posts? conferences? miles traveled? She didn't know, and apparently no one has ever asked that question (at least at that stage of the process) before.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    How many years ago? Google famously publicly renounced those ~5 years ago.
    - gedy 10y ago
      True, was about 5-6 years ago.
- quantumhobbit 10y ago
  If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club? Problem is the club doesn't seem to want any new members above a certain age.
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    > Problem is the club doesn't seem to want any new members above a certain age. Which is precisely the problem that was being pointed out earlier - how meta! :)
  - SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
    "A certain age"? I "joined" the club by getting a gig at Amazon at 46. Before that I'd never worked at any of the big tech companies. I also get interest from startups all the time, but from what I can tell they don't want employees above a certain salary, not a certain age. I don't think it's age but attitude and skills that distinguish people who can get "in the club." If the attitude is "SHOW ME THE MONEY" when Google is well known for paying way above market rates, or if the attitude is "WHY SHOULD I KNOW THESE CS PROBLEMS!?", when it's well known that Google cares about those problems...well, then no, you can't join the club. At this point I've interviewed at Google but turned them down when they could only offer me what sounded like a glorified accounting programming position (in the Boulder office, which doesn't have as many teams as in Mountain View). I might have fun working at Google on the right team, but I have other options (including Amazon) that also pay well and are very attractive for other reasons, so why not?
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  Despite my shitty experience last time, I would be willing to give Google another chance (as long as it isn't in California). They've decided to ignore me.
  - kmonsen 10y ago
    pm or email me if you want some help username@gmail.com Also I have worked for Google in NYC and London so feel free to ask any questions.
- linkregister 10y ago
  Since when does Google fail to ask toy algorithms question of senior engineers? I'm not being snarky; everything I've ever read, heard, and experienced with Google interviews is that these trivia algorithms questions compose the majority of the on-site interviews. [1] [2] You appear to be different, but please don't claim your interviewing style as representative of even 1/4 of Google interviewers. > [maybe] everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to. If memorizing algorithms is a necessary condition of a senior engineer being qualified to work at Google, that is fine. But it is disingenuous to claim otherwise, since clearly many have found it is algorithm memorization that has been the gatekeeper from getting an offer at Google, not non-abstract large systems design, linux systems internals knowledge, concurrent and asynchronous programming, etc. [1] http://www.nakov.com/blog/2007/12/27/overqualified-to-work-in-google/ http://www.nakov.com/blog/2007/12/27/overqualified-to-work-i... "Trust me, a 15 years old schoolboy who is a good programming contestant (e.g. some of the Bulgarian National champions) can pass these questions without having any experience in commercial software engineering. I expected more software engineering questions about software design and architecture, large-scale databases and information systems, Internet applications, information security, parallel programming, threads, synchronization, development process, software quality, testing, life-cycle, software project management, agile development, etc. but the interviewers didn’t even mention any of these topics. I applied for senior position and it was normal to expect serious software engineering and technical questions, but this didn’t happen." [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-Interview-Questions-EI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Google-Senior-Software-E... (the typical response is some variation of "they asked me a question that was similar to a problem in Cracking the Coding Interview while not offering a single question about my previous accomplishments or potential culture fit."
kamaal 10y ago
Most start ups really want people in early 20's, Unmarried without responsibilities, who have a very idealistic view of the world and are ready to fail, without any financial profit in return. >>stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews" Unless you are in "exam mode" all the time. Spending away all your life in the pursuit of the interview preparation. This kind of interview preparedness isn't possible anyway.
- vvanders 10y ago
  That seems to be common in other high-churn areas of the industry as well, ex: GameDev.
- jasoncchild 10y ago
  ^yes. when an early-stage startup (seed or just hit series a) emphasizes that they are a 'family' this is not quite accurate. yes, caring and support abounds, but its not so much a family as a group of friends...and like every group of friends when you can't hang at the bar until closing a few nights a week or spend a weekend 'adventure camping' the group just stops inviting you. quickly you lose sync, don't get the in-jokes and most importantly you lose value in the eyes of the group. 'oh, she/he used to be cool, but they just don't hang anymore'. when it comes to work this has a very destructive effect. team-building exercises that require people to choose between spending time with their families and participating are, in my opinion, at the least cruel and at the most nefariously aimed at driving a culture wedge between you and the company. your children only grow up once. no second chances. your elderly parents deterioration and eventual death only happens once. no second chances. most of us will work the majority of our lives, occupying several roles at more than one company. in my mind this amounts to numerous 'chances' to do things better/differently/more carefully/more thoughtfully/ etc etc etc.
- mholmes680 10y ago
  To his credit, I had a (rather eccentric) founder in NYC ask me if I planned on having kids anytime soon as the first question of his interview - after all the tech questions from people under him. When I said yeah, and I was planning on commuting from NJ, he said "well I don't want to break up a family, so see you later" <end of interview>. I thought it was rude at the time, but here I am 3 years later and damn if he wasn't right. Dodged a bullet that only he saw was coming right at me.
susan_hall 10y ago
I have faced something similar. Though I have 14 years experience with technologies that are suppose to be in demand (Ruby On Rails, NodeJS) I have had a very difficult time finding work this year. It's certainly more difficult now than in 2012 or 2013.
- altano 10y ago
  Neither Ruby on Rails nor NodeJS has existed for 14 years.
  - jgroch 10y ago
    yet FORTRAN and COBOL do and so do reams of magnetic tape around the Beltway who will maintain old code? you?
    - MOARDONGZPLZ 10y ago
      The poster specifically mentioned 14 years with these technologies. The fact that there are technologies 14+ years old is irrelevant to this point.
      - logfromblammo 10y ago
        You can parse that statement in a more favorable way. She has spent 14 years acquiring experience with relatively new (or newly popular) technologies. So 14 years ago, she would have worked with a technology that is now slightly more than 14 years old--I'd guess C#, which is now 16 years old. Maybe 9 years ago, she worked with Ruby on Rails, which is now 10 years old. Maybe 6 years ago, she started on Node.js, which is now 7 years old. Even now, she is likely keeping an eye on HN to see what would be most useful to learn next. In other words, she has been continuously jogging on the technology treadmill, rather than staking out a niche to ride out until retirement. This is likely the only way to avoid moving to progressively stodgier and less interesting companies as you age. The young and hip companies use the young and hip tech stacks. Established companies wait to see whether the new thing can cut costs or increase revenues before migrating, and part of that equation is not paying a premium for specialist developers that are currently in high demand.
serge2k 10y ago
> stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews" I think there are problems with the current model, but is ageism really one of them?
- potatolicious 10y ago
  To a large degree yeah - performance in "stupid algorithm games" is basically perfectly inversely correlated with "years since undergrad CS courses".
  - FT_intern 10y ago
    It's more of "years since last studied algorithms". University algorithms classes are useless for these types of interviews for the most part when 90% of the focus is on the proofs. Most people I know spent time studying by themselves outside of class/class material.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

Periodic 10y ago

If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club? I used to work at Google and I did a lot of interviews. I loved when we finally got an experienced engineer in to interview. I could stop asking the toy algorithms questions and actually talk about design. But maybe they only want to hire fresh college grads? The company is sorely lacking in experience. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they can't find experienced engineers to interview is that everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to. Maybe you're in that camp of not wanting to work at Google. That's fine. I enjoyed it for a while but it wasn't for me. Just having it on my resume has opened a lot of doors.

gedy 10y ago
Interviewing at Google a few years ago (with some experience) was not positive - the interviewer actively avoided talking anything about design or systems, and insisted on asking me brain teasers about weighing boxes of pennies, etc. Was a stupid waste of time for me and turned me off from Google totally.
- ruste 10y ago
  I think I'd actually prefer that...
  - gedy 10y ago
    It wasn't just the type of questions, was the whole experience - I did answer, then then interviewer insisted I could do it in one fewer step, and would not proceed or assist until I came up with a better answer. Then time was up, and he answered no questions of mine. Emailing the recruiter to ask if this was expected or if there was another role and received no replies back. Sorry, but to hell with working for Google after that... Bear in mind at the time I had 8 years experience in non-trivial roles, including some mgmt and architecture, and they were the ones who reached out to me.
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      > and they were the ones who reached out to me. I had a google recruiter call, we spoke, then set up a longer interview. I asked about pay, and was told they don't talk about it until after an interview, which meant travel and time away from current projects. It's not that I couldn't do it at all, but it meant some schedule shuffling and I wanted a ballpark - just a ballpark or ...minimum floor. She wouldn't give me any info. I then asked another question which she didn't know the answer to ("no one's ever asked that before!") and told me she'd have an answer in a couple days. That was ... Aug 2013? I'm still waiting. I told the story before and someone said "well, that's no way to get a job!" as I described my questioning the recruiter. "I didn't apply for a job - they called me - they can answer a couple of my questions if they want me to take time out to come visit them".
      - rubberstamp 10y ago
        can you please share what that question was? just curious. I've read many other articles about candidates having had similar experiences. Its one of the reasons i dont like Google as a company
        mgkimsal 10y ago
        role was developer evangelist. she mentioned bonuses were based on performance review, and I asked what the metrics were. how did they measure the 'success' of a developer evangelist? number of presentations? blog posts? conferences? miles traveled? She didn't know, and apparently no one has ever asked that question (at least at that stage of the process) before.
- gohrt 10y ago
  How many years ago? Google famously publicly renounced those ~5 years ago.
  - gedy 10y ago
    True, was about 5-6 years ago.
quantumhobbit 10y ago
If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club? Problem is the club doesn't seem to want any new members above a certain age.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  > Problem is the club doesn't seem to want any new members above a certain age. Which is precisely the problem that was being pointed out earlier - how meta! :)
- SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
  "A certain age"? I "joined" the club by getting a gig at Amazon at 46. Before that I'd never worked at any of the big tech companies. I also get interest from startups all the time, but from what I can tell they don't want employees above a certain salary, not a certain age. I don't think it's age but attitude and skills that distinguish people who can get "in the club." If the attitude is "SHOW ME THE MONEY" when Google is well known for paying way above market rates, or if the attitude is "WHY SHOULD I KNOW THESE CS PROBLEMS!?", when it's well known that Google cares about those problems...well, then no, you can't join the club. At this point I've interviewed at Google but turned them down when they could only offer me what sounded like a glorified accounting programming position (in the Boulder office, which doesn't have as many teams as in Mountain View). I might have fun working at Google on the right team, but I have other options (including Amazon) that also pay well and are very attractive for other reasons, so why not?
vonmoltke 10y ago
Despite my shitty experience last time, I would be willing to give Google another chance (as long as it isn't in California). They've decided to ignore me.
- kmonsen 10y ago
  pm or email me if you want some help username@gmail.com Also I have worked for Google in NYC and London so feel free to ask any questions.
linkregister 10y ago
Since when does Google fail to ask toy algorithms question of senior engineers? I'm not being snarky; everything I've ever read, heard, and experienced with Google interviews is that these trivia algorithms questions compose the majority of the on-site interviews. [1] [2] You appear to be different, but please don't claim your interviewing style as representative of even 1/4 of Google interviewers. > [maybe] everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to. If memorizing algorithms is a necessary condition of a senior engineer being qualified to work at Google, that is fine. But it is disingenuous to claim otherwise, since clearly many have found it is algorithm memorization that has been the gatekeeper from getting an offer at Google, not non-abstract large systems design, linux systems internals knowledge, concurrent and asynchronous programming, etc. [1] http://www.nakov.com/blog/2007/12/27/overqualified-to-work-in-google/ http://www.nakov.com/blog/2007/12/27/overqualified-to-work-i... "Trust me, a 15 years old schoolboy who is a good programming contestant (e.g. some of the Bulgarian National champions) can pass these questions without having any experience in commercial software engineering. I expected more software engineering questions about software design and architecture, large-scale databases and information systems, Internet applications, information security, parallel programming, threads, synchronization, development process, software quality, testing, life-cycle, software project management, agile development, etc. but the interviewers didn’t even mention any of these topics. I applied for senior position and it was normal to expect serious software engineering and technical questions, but this didn’t happen." [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-Interview-Questions-EI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Interview/Google-Senior-Software-E... (the typical response is some variation of "they asked me a question that was similar to a problem in Cracking the Coding Interview while not offering a single question about my previous accomplishments or potential culture fit."

kamaal 10y ago

Most start ups really want people in early 20's, Unmarried without responsibilities, who have a very idealistic view of the world and are ready to fail, without any financial profit in return. >>stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews" Unless you are in "exam mode" all the time. Spending away all your life in the pursuit of the interview preparation. This kind of interview preparedness isn't possible anyway.

vvanders 10y ago
That seems to be common in other high-churn areas of the industry as well, ex: GameDev.
jasoncchild 10y ago
^yes. when an early-stage startup (seed or just hit series a) emphasizes that they are a 'family' this is not quite accurate. yes, caring and support abounds, but its not so much a family as a group of friends...and like every group of friends when you can't hang at the bar until closing a few nights a week or spend a weekend 'adventure camping' the group just stops inviting you. quickly you lose sync, don't get the in-jokes and most importantly you lose value in the eyes of the group. 'oh, she/he used to be cool, but they just don't hang anymore'. when it comes to work this has a very destructive effect. team-building exercises that require people to choose between spending time with their families and participating are, in my opinion, at the least cruel and at the most nefariously aimed at driving a culture wedge between you and the company. your children only grow up once. no second chances. your elderly parents deterioration and eventual death only happens once. no second chances. most of us will work the majority of our lives, occupying several roles at more than one company. in my mind this amounts to numerous 'chances' to do things better/differently/more carefully/more thoughtfully/ etc etc etc.
mholmes680 10y ago
To his credit, I had a (rather eccentric) founder in NYC ask me if I planned on having kids anytime soon as the first question of his interview - after all the tech questions from people under him. When I said yeah, and I was planning on commuting from NJ, he said "well I don't want to break up a family, so see you later" <end of interview>. I thought it was rude at the time, but here I am 3 years later and damn if he wasn't right. Dodged a bullet that only he saw was coming right at me.

susan_hall 10y ago

I have faced something similar. Though I have 14 years experience with technologies that are suppose to be in demand (Ruby On Rails, NodeJS) I have had a very difficult time finding work this year. It's certainly more difficult now than in 2012 or 2013.

altano 10y ago
Neither Ruby on Rails nor NodeJS has existed for 14 years.
- jgroch 10y ago
  yet FORTRAN and COBOL do and so do reams of magnetic tape around the Beltway who will maintain old code? you?
  - MOARDONGZPLZ 10y ago
    The poster specifically mentioned 14 years with these technologies. The fact that there are technologies 14+ years old is irrelevant to this point.
    - logfromblammo 10y ago
      You can parse that statement in a more favorable way. She has spent 14 years acquiring experience with relatively new (or newly popular) technologies. So 14 years ago, she would have worked with a technology that is now slightly more than 14 years old--I'd guess C#, which is now 16 years old. Maybe 9 years ago, she worked with Ruby on Rails, which is now 10 years old. Maybe 6 years ago, she started on Node.js, which is now 7 years old. Even now, she is likely keeping an eye on HN to see what would be most useful to learn next. In other words, she has been continuously jogging on the technology treadmill, rather than staking out a niche to ride out until retirement. This is likely the only way to avoid moving to progressively stodgier and less interesting companies as you age. The young and hip companies use the young and hip tech stacks. Established companies wait to see whether the new thing can cut costs or increase revenues before migrating, and part of that equation is not paying a premium for specialist developers that are currently in high demand.

serge2k 10y ago

> stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews" I think there are problems with the current model, but is ageism really one of them?

potatolicious 10y ago
To a large degree yeah - performance in "stupid algorithm games" is basically perfectly inversely correlated with "years since undergrad CS courses".
- FT_intern 10y ago
  It's more of "years since last studied algorithms". University algorithms classes are useless for these types of interviews for the most part when 90% of the focus is on the proofs. Most people I know spent time studying by themselves outside of class/class material.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]