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Any time ageism comes up on HN, someone trots out "the people who are complaining about being victims of ageism just haven't been keeping their skills up to dat

Any time ageism comes up on HN, someone trots out "the people who are complaining about being victims of ageism just haven't been keeping their skills up to date; keep learning new things and you will be fine." It generally goes unchallenged. I would consider that to be discounting ageism as nonexistent.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
I don't know if I have ever experienced actual ageism. Here's what I've found, though: - If you want somebody who will work 14-hour days, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If you want to pay appropriate to someone who's 25, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If your company is a pit, if your management is insane, if your coworkers are psychopaths, well, most people over 40 have seem that enough times to not go there. I've seen companies advertising for "senior software engineer". They want 5-7 years of experience. I've got 30. They don't want to pay for 30. Is that ageism? Or am I just too expensive? Or does my experience exceed the hiring manager's ability to correctly value? I'm not saying that ageism doesn't exist. But I am saying that there are some reasons other than ageism that older software engineers find it harder to get hired.
- morgante 10y ago
  Tech is, ultimately, an up or out field. The marginal return to experience is minimal after a decade or so, particularly when it comes to the average software job. If you have decades of experience, you need to be in a higher leverage position (either consulting or management) to get appropriate pay for the position. This doesn't make tech ageist. My local grocery store also doesn't pay the senior cashiers any more than the high school ones.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    I disagree, at least for some sub-fields. In embedded systems, 20 years of experience is more valuable than 5 years (and has pay to reflect that). In web programming? Maybe not so much...
    - morgante 10y ago
      It sounds like we actually agree. Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable.
      - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        > Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable. I don't have enough data/experience to confirm that, but it seems plausible.
      - twblalock 10y ago
        That makes sense. If all you need is someone with a few years' experience, the younger candidates are probably going to be willing to work longer hours, for less money, than the older candidates. In other words, why pay a 20+ year veteran a lot of money to do Rails programming when a recent college grad knows enough to do a decent job, and can be paid an entry-level salary? Not every engineer on a team needs to be senior. I suspect this is also good career advice: if you don't want to compete with entry-level programmers for jobs, specialize in an area where more experience makes you a more desirable job candidate.
    - elliotec 10y ago
      You don't think having been programming for the web since the web came into existence is not valuable experience to being a web programmer? That is absurd. That kind of bullshit talk is why ageism exists and what perpetuates it.
      - twblalock 10y ago
        He didn't say it wasn't valuable. He said it might not be more valuable than 5 years' experience, presumably because technologies change so quickly in web programming. I don't agree with that, but he certainly wasn't being ageist.
    - sanderjd 10y ago
      Can you articulate why experience is valuable in embedded systems and why it is not valuable in web applications?
- jpindar 10y ago
  Assuming that anyone over a certain age is going to require short hours, high pay, etc. IS ageist.
elliotec 10y ago
One or two gen-xers or millennials saying such things per ageism comment on HN might count as discounting ageism as nonexistent but only by those people specifically. People know it's a problem. Whether or not they actually do anything about it is a different story. Like any "ism."

AnimalMuppet 10y ago

I don't know if I have ever experienced actual ageism. Here's what I've found, though: - If you want somebody who will work 14-hour days, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If you want to pay appropriate to someone who's 25, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If your company is a pit, if your management is insane, if your coworkers are psychopaths, well, most people over 40 have seem that enough times to not go there. I've seen companies advertising for "senior software engineer". They want 5-7 years of experience. I've got 30. They don't want to pay for 30. Is that ageism? Or am I just too expensive? Or does my experience exceed the hiring manager's ability to correctly value? I'm not saying that ageism doesn't exist. But I am saying that there are some reasons other than ageism that older software engineers find it harder to get hired.

morgante 10y ago
Tech is, ultimately, an up or out field. The marginal return to experience is minimal after a decade or so, particularly when it comes to the average software job. If you have decades of experience, you need to be in a higher leverage position (either consulting or management) to get appropriate pay for the position. This doesn't make tech ageist. My local grocery store also doesn't pay the senior cashiers any more than the high school ones.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  I disagree, at least for some sub-fields. In embedded systems, 20 years of experience is more valuable than 5 years (and has pay to reflect that). In web programming? Maybe not so much...
  - morgante 10y ago
    It sounds like we actually agree. Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable.
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      > Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable. I don't have enough data/experience to confirm that, but it seems plausible.
    - twblalock 10y ago
      That makes sense. If all you need is someone with a few years' experience, the younger candidates are probably going to be willing to work longer hours, for less money, than the older candidates. In other words, why pay a 20+ year veteran a lot of money to do Rails programming when a recent college grad knows enough to do a decent job, and can be paid an entry-level salary? Not every engineer on a team needs to be senior. I suspect this is also good career advice: if you don't want to compete with entry-level programmers for jobs, specialize in an area where more experience makes you a more desirable job candidate.
  - elliotec 10y ago
    You don't think having been programming for the web since the web came into existence is not valuable experience to being a web programmer? That is absurd. That kind of bullshit talk is why ageism exists and what perpetuates it.
    - twblalock 10y ago
      He didn't say it wasn't valuable. He said it might not be more valuable than 5 years' experience, presumably because technologies change so quickly in web programming. I don't agree with that, but he certainly wasn't being ageist.
  - sanderjd 10y ago
    Can you articulate why experience is valuable in embedded systems and why it is not valuable in web applications?
jpindar 10y ago
Assuming that anyone over a certain age is going to require short hours, high pay, etc. IS ageist.

elliotec 10y ago

One or two gen-xers or millennials saying such things per ageism comment on HN might count as discounting ageism as nonexistent but only by those people specifically. People know it's a problem. Whether or not they actually do anything about it is a different story. Like any "ism."