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This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone. Ageism is a very clear and apparent problem to anyone. As a millennial, i know a lot of people who are clearly

This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone. Ageism is a very clear and apparent problem to anyone. As a millennial, i know a lot of people who are clearly "ageists" but almost all of them have been gen x and my millennial peers are very aware of these things. I'm not saying millenials aren't to blame as well, but anecdotally the problem seems to stem from the generation above me and the generation below those who are feeling the ageism

mgkimsal 10y ago
> This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone Based on conversations in some of our tech groups, yes, it is seen as non-existent by some.
superuser2 10y ago
Any time ageism comes up on HN, someone trots out "the people who are complaining about being victims of ageism just haven't been keeping their skills up to date; keep learning new things and you will be fine." It generally goes unchallenged. I would consider that to be discounting ageism as nonexistent.
- AnimalMuppet 10y ago
  I don't know if I have ever experienced actual ageism. Here's what I've found, though: - If you want somebody who will work 14-hour days, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If you want to pay appropriate to someone who's 25, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If your company is a pit, if your management is insane, if your coworkers are psychopaths, well, most people over 40 have seem that enough times to not go there. I've seen companies advertising for "senior software engineer". They want 5-7 years of experience. I've got 30. They don't want to pay for 30. Is that ageism? Or am I just too expensive? Or does my experience exceed the hiring manager's ability to correctly value? I'm not saying that ageism doesn't exist. But I am saying that there are some reasons other than ageism that older software engineers find it harder to get hired.
  - morgante 10y ago
    Tech is, ultimately, an up or out field. The marginal return to experience is minimal after a decade or so, particularly when it comes to the average software job. If you have decades of experience, you need to be in a higher leverage position (either consulting or management) to get appropriate pay for the position. This doesn't make tech ageist. My local grocery store also doesn't pay the senior cashiers any more than the high school ones.
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      I disagree, at least for some sub-fields. In embedded systems, 20 years of experience is more valuable than 5 years (and has pay to reflect that). In web programming? Maybe not so much...
      - morgante 10y ago
        It sounds like we actually agree. Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable.
        AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        > Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable. I don't have enough data/experience to confirm that, but it seems plausible.
        twblalock 10y ago
        That makes sense. If all you need is someone with a few years' experience, the younger candidates are probably going to be willing to work longer hours, for less money, than the older candidates. In other words, why pay a 20+ year veteran a lot of money to do Rails programming when a recent college grad knows enough to do a decent job, and can be paid an entry-level salary? Not every engineer on a team needs to be senior. I suspect this is also good career advice: if you don't want to compete with entry-level programmers for jobs, specialize in an area where more experience makes you a more desirable job candidate.
- elliotec 10y ago
  One or two gen-xers or millennials saying such things per ageism comment on HN might count as discounting ageism as nonexistent but only by those people specifically. People know it's a problem. Whether or not they actually do anything about it is a different story. Like any "ism."
pmiller2 10y ago
If people are ageist against millenials, who's hiring all the 25 year olds I work with?
- dpark 10y ago
  He didn't say anyone is ageist against millenials. He just said millenials are not the ones who are ageist. I think this is probably still not true, but it's the claim.
- slavik81 10y ago
  If you're suggesting based on your workplace that young people are more likely to find jobs overall, you are incorrect. "On average between 1989 and 2007, the unemployment rate of workers under age 25 was 2.2 times as high as the overall unemployment rate. [...] In March 2015, the overall unemployment rate was 5.5 percent, and the unemployment rate of workers under age 25, at 12.3 percent, was 2.2 times as high." http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/ http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/
  - pmiller2 10y ago
    My comment and the article are specific to tech; your response is not.
optimuspaul 10y ago
lets start by removing the labels of gen x and millennial. It's degrading. I personally try to not take age (or gender, race, clothing choice(please can we stop with wearing suits and ties to interviews, it's dumb), or anything other than skills and culture fit) into account when interviewing people. But I can say that looking out over the people at the company I am at, it's mostly young people. Is that ageism? probably some but also, guess who costs more? old people. That's why older folks have a harder time getting hired. I also suspect that due to the glut of young kids coming into the market they will feel similar pains at trying to get hired just due to sheer numbers, and of course jerks who don't want those kids on their lawn.
- cellularmitosis 10y ago
  It is also easy to forget that more and more people are becoming programmers each year. The necessary result of this is that when you look at the average tech company, there will be fewer older programmers. "Uncle" Bob Martin once gave a talk where he asked for a show of hands of "How many of you have been programming for 5 years? 10 years? 15? 20?". The results in his audience roughly correlated to his thesis, that the number of programmers has roughly doubled every 5 years since programming was a thing. Are there fewer older programmers at a given company because of ageism? I'm sure that's part of it. But don't forget that there are far, far fewer programmers with 20 years of experience than with 5 years of experience.
  - BatFastard 10y ago
    And if you got the choice of hiring someone with 5 year experience or 20, which would you choose?
    - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
      It would depend on the kind of experience and the quality of insight. Time served doesn't correlate to quality. Programming is actually a very permissive industry. There are corporate environments in which you can be barely competent and still keep your job - if not gain promotions.

mgkimsal 10y ago

> This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone Based on conversations in some of our tech groups, yes, it is seen as non-existent by some.

superuser2 10y ago

Any time ageism comes up on HN, someone trots out "the people who are complaining about being victims of ageism just haven't been keeping their skills up to date; keep learning new things and you will be fine." It generally goes unchallenged. I would consider that to be discounting ageism as nonexistent.

AnimalMuppet 10y ago
I don't know if I have ever experienced actual ageism. Here's what I've found, though: - If you want somebody who will work 14-hour days, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If you want to pay appropriate to someone who's 25, well, that eliminates most people over 40. - If your company is a pit, if your management is insane, if your coworkers are psychopaths, well, most people over 40 have seem that enough times to not go there. I've seen companies advertising for "senior software engineer". They want 5-7 years of experience. I've got 30. They don't want to pay for 30. Is that ageism? Or am I just too expensive? Or does my experience exceed the hiring manager's ability to correctly value? I'm not saying that ageism doesn't exist. But I am saying that there are some reasons other than ageism that older software engineers find it harder to get hired.
- morgante 10y ago
  Tech is, ultimately, an up or out field. The marginal return to experience is minimal after a decade or so, particularly when it comes to the average software job. If you have decades of experience, you need to be in a higher leverage position (either consulting or management) to get appropriate pay for the position. This doesn't make tech ageist. My local grocery store also doesn't pay the senior cashiers any more than the high school ones.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    I disagree, at least for some sub-fields. In embedded systems, 20 years of experience is more valuable than 5 years (and has pay to reflect that). In web programming? Maybe not so much...
    - morgante 10y ago
      It sounds like we actually agree. Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable.
      - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
        > Most of the accusations of ageism seem to be for fields where 20 years of experience is not so valuable. I don't have enough data/experience to confirm that, but it seems plausible.
      - twblalock 10y ago
        That makes sense. If all you need is someone with a few years' experience, the younger candidates are probably going to be willing to work longer hours, for less money, than the older candidates. In other words, why pay a 20+ year veteran a lot of money to do Rails programming when a recent college grad knows enough to do a decent job, and can be paid an entry-level salary? Not every engineer on a team needs to be senior. I suspect this is also good career advice: if you don't want to compete with entry-level programmers for jobs, specialize in an area where more experience makes you a more desirable job candidate.
elliotec 10y ago
One or two gen-xers or millennials saying such things per ageism comment on HN might count as discounting ageism as nonexistent but only by those people specifically. People know it's a problem. Whether or not they actually do anything about it is a different story. Like any "ism."

pmiller2 10y ago

If people are ageist against millenials, who's hiring all the 25 year olds I work with?

dpark 10y ago
He didn't say anyone is ageist against millenials. He just said millenials are not the ones who are ageist. I think this is probably still not true, but it's the claim.
slavik81 10y ago
If you're suggesting based on your workplace that young people are more likely to find jobs overall, you are incorrect. "On average between 1989 and 2007, the unemployment rate of workers under age 25 was 2.2 times as high as the overall unemployment rate. [...] In March 2015, the overall unemployment rate was 5.5 percent, and the unemployment rate of workers under age 25, at 12.3 percent, was 2.2 times as high." http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/ http://www.epi.org/publication/the-class-of-2015/
- pmiller2 10y ago
  My comment and the article are specific to tech; your response is not.

optimuspaul 10y ago

lets start by removing the labels of gen x and millennial. It's degrading. I personally try to not take age (or gender, race, clothing choice(please can we stop with wearing suits and ties to interviews, it's dumb), or anything other than skills and culture fit) into account when interviewing people. But I can say that looking out over the people at the company I am at, it's mostly young people. Is that ageism? probably some but also, guess who costs more? old people. That's why older folks have a harder time getting hired. I also suspect that due to the glut of young kids coming into the market they will feel similar pains at trying to get hired just due to sheer numbers, and of course jerks who don't want those kids on their lawn.

cellularmitosis 10y ago
It is also easy to forget that more and more people are becoming programmers each year. The necessary result of this is that when you look at the average tech company, there will be fewer older programmers. "Uncle" Bob Martin once gave a talk where he asked for a show of hands of "How many of you have been programming for 5 years? 10 years? 15? 20?". The results in his audience roughly correlated to his thesis, that the number of programmers has roughly doubled every 5 years since programming was a thing. Are there fewer older programmers at a given company because of ageism? I'm sure that's part of it. But don't forget that there are far, far fewer programmers with 20 years of experience than with 5 years of experience.
- BatFastard 10y ago
  And if you got the choice of hiring someone with 5 year experience or 20, which would you choose?
  - TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
    It would depend on the kind of experience and the quality of insight. Time served doesn't correlate to quality. Programming is actually a very permissive industry. There are corporate environments in which you can be barely competent and still keep your job - if not gain promotions.