4 ms·

I can not disagree with this article more, and I do not mean with his experiences, that is fine, embrace your feelings. But to pretend that China _solves_ these

I can not disagree with this article more, and I do not mean with his experiences, that is fine, embrace your feelings. But to pretend that China _solves_ these social problems is a farce. China _jails_ these social problems. China _forces_ these social problems to work in mines and other forced labor industries. China _censors_ anybody who questions it. They have a god damn firewall blocking people from finding any information on their government's ills. Talk about a walled garden, or should I say a firewalled garden. He is in such a privileged position in China. He is a white man with money. He is the _elite_ in Beijing that he so quickly judges in San Francisco. Wake up man, you are the powerful in Beijing, you are the analog to the guy living in the million dollar apartment in SFO. San Francisco, and the United States has many surface problems, but many of these problems are due to being _liberal_ when it comes to homelessness and mentally ill. Can the USA do better? Of course, without a doubt. But it is such a false equvilancy to compare the laissez faire problems of the west with the oppressive problems of China.

jernfrost 10y ago
Then you read another article than me. He acknowledged that China had real problems and was not any better than the US. His point was that China was moving somewhere. That is a point I can relate to, because it seems like America isn't even trying to solve its problems. Pollution is a great point. No doubt China is far more polluted than America today. So it is far worse. However China has a much grander goals and incentives for change. They put in place stricter emission standards for new cars. They invest very heavily in renewable energy to the point where most solar cells today are made in China. They acknowledge they have a serious problem. In contrast in America a large fraction of the population are disputing that there even is a problem to begin with. This attitude mirrors the other state affairs in China and the US. American conservatives blame poor people for their problems. They didn't work hard enough, didn't get an education, have the wrong attitude or whatever. China at least accepts that poverty is a problem. But they have to fight epidemic corruption and many other on problems on many fronts. China no doubt is a dictatorship. But it is also a developing country. I can't see the justification for America being a de-facto police state. No western nation has as draconian punishment, no nation locks up as many people or has as militarized police. So there is no reason to be smug towards China.
- salmon30salmon 10y ago
  Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However, the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as negative points in the US. He used the homelessness, drug use and mental illness along with the general dirtiness of the streets of SF. My point was a direct counter to that, that while the US has a problem with homelessness, China averts that problem through forced labor, incarceration etc. Now, were he to say "the United States has a huge problem with militarization and I dislike this" I would have countered with China's behavior in the South China Sea as a counterpoint demonstrating aggression on the part of the PRC Would he have mentioned incarceration, I would have brought up the house arrests and indefinite detention of journalists and political opponents to the Communist party. I could go on. Great, China is working on pollution, but don't for a minute think this is due to global climate change, rather their citizens are dying due to the pollution. Motivations aside, good on them for taking a lead. And really, that is a poor excuse. Because China is in the midst of an economic Renaissance they are excused from the basic tenants of human rights? Of a free people? By the same argument, slavery was a-ok during the early years of the United States. But I reject that terrible ethical relativism and insist that slavery was as wrong then as it now, and so are the abuses that the PRC commits upon its own people.
  - uola 10y ago
    You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any critique of the US with something that is worse in China.
    - salmon30salmon 10y ago
      Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the United States. I won't take that away from China. You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city seems to have less of a homelessness problem. At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to rebuke those points with some counter examples. Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.

jernfrost 10y ago

Then you read another article than me. He acknowledged that China had real problems and was not any better than the US. His point was that China was moving somewhere. That is a point I can relate to, because it seems like America isn't even trying to solve its problems. Pollution is a great point. No doubt China is far more polluted than America today. So it is far worse. However China has a much grander goals and incentives for change. They put in place stricter emission standards for new cars. They invest very heavily in renewable energy to the point where most solar cells today are made in China. They acknowledge they have a serious problem. In contrast in America a large fraction of the population are disputing that there even is a problem to begin with. This attitude mirrors the other state affairs in China and the US. American conservatives blame poor people for their problems. They didn't work hard enough, didn't get an education, have the wrong attitude or whatever. China at least accepts that poverty is a problem. But they have to fight epidemic corruption and many other on problems on many fronts. China no doubt is a dictatorship. But it is also a developing country. I can't see the justification for America being a de-facto police state. No western nation has as draconian punishment, no nation locks up as many people or has as militarized police. So there is no reason to be smug towards China.

salmon30salmon 10y ago
Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However, the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as negative points in the US. He used the homelessness, drug use and mental illness along with the general dirtiness of the streets of SF. My point was a direct counter to that, that while the US has a problem with homelessness, China averts that problem through forced labor, incarceration etc. Now, were he to say "the United States has a huge problem with militarization and I dislike this" I would have countered with China's behavior in the South China Sea as a counterpoint demonstrating aggression on the part of the PRC Would he have mentioned incarceration, I would have brought up the house arrests and indefinite detention of journalists and political opponents to the Communist party. I could go on. Great, China is working on pollution, but don't for a minute think this is due to global climate change, rather their citizens are dying due to the pollution. Motivations aside, good on them for taking a lead. And really, that is a poor excuse. Because China is in the midst of an economic Renaissance they are excused from the basic tenants of human rights? Of a free people? By the same argument, slavery was a-ok during the early years of the United States. But I reject that terrible ethical relativism and insist that slavery was as wrong then as it now, and so are the abuses that the PRC commits upon its own people.
- uola 10y ago
  You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any critique of the US with something that is worse in China.
  - salmon30salmon 10y ago
    Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the United States. I won't take that away from China. You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city seems to have less of a homelessness problem. At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to rebuke those points with some counter examples. Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.