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> I’ve been telling my students, “Take a chance, you can get another job on Monday.” For students, maybe, especially if they're entry level jobs. However, for

> I’ve been telling my students, “Take a chance, you can get another job on Monday.” For students, maybe, especially if they're entry level jobs. However, for anyone even mid-level, I don't think this has been good advice for several years. Perhaps in SF it's been fine, but even for many mid-level (and certainly sr folks) I know, finding another job "on monday" has not been the case. (getting an interview, especially via a recruiter, has still been relatively quick, from what I hear). Employers have been far more picky than I think many people expect. Compounding this is that they sometimes have suboptimal folks in particular roles, and those people tend to exacerbate the problem when interviewing/finding new folks. In any event, glad to see somewhat balanced view, vs the extremes we normally see.

arenaninja 10y ago
I agree. On my latest job, it took more than three weeks from me accepting their offer to a starting date, normally this is fine, but I was unemployed at the time. By contrast, my previous job was ready to start weeks before I was.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  How long did it take to get that offer, from when you started looking?
  - arenaninja 10y ago
    Between 2-3 weeks, though I think my first interview was 1.5 weeks from when I started looking.
forgetsusername 10y ago
>However, for anyone even mid-level, I don't think this has been good advice for several years. The implication is that this advice has been good historically, but is "going away". In the article he argues to value jobs over job prospects.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  "Historically" is relative - I don't think it's been good advice for at least 15 years, but it might have been 'actionable' advice in SF/NY/etc for a bit longer.
ryandrake 10y ago
Yea. I think a lot of people might think the hiring market is healthy and that there are jobs everywhere purely based on the volume of recruiter spam in their inbox. In reality, tons of companies are INTERVIEWING but nobody seems to be HIRING. I've got almost 2 decades of experience as a programmer, project manager and product manager, and I still estimate that, given the job market these days, it would take 1-6 months to line up another job if I started today. I've not seen an environment where you could "get another job on Monday" since 1999.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  You're too old. This gets back to the basic 'ageism' issue in tech, which is real and alive for many, and discounted as non-existent by others (usually much younger folks!) Most of the 'older' tech folks I know take a while to get new jobs - took a friend of mine more than 9 months. This has nothing to do with actual skills/abilities, it's (at best, being charitable here) perception of skills/abilities.
  - elliotec 10y ago
    This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone. Ageism is a very clear and apparent problem to anyone. As a millennial, i know a lot of people who are clearly "ageists" but almost all of them have been gen x and my millennial peers are very aware of these things. I'm not saying millenials aren't to blame as well, but anecdotally the problem seems to stem from the generation above me and the generation below those who are feeling the ageism
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      > This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone Based on conversations in some of our tech groups, yes, it is seen as non-existent by some.
    - superuser2 10y ago
      Any time ageism comes up on HN, someone trots out "the people who are complaining about being victims of ageism just haven't been keeping their skills up to date; keep learning new things and you will be fine." It generally goes unchallenged. I would consider that to be discounting ageism as nonexistent.
johnward 10y ago
I've seen co-workers, who were way more skilled than me, be on the market for almost a year. One in particular was my mentor and it took him about 8 months. Another was my direct manager and it's been over a year.
- alain94040 10y ago
  There is an order of magnitude fewer jobs available for manager than for regular engineers. That's why it probably would take about a month to find a job as an engineer with a few years of experience, but 6 months or more for an engineering manager with 10-20 years of total experience.
  - johnward 10y ago
    That makes sense. I think my manager is going to go back to being an engineer.
- initram 10y ago
  The rule-of-thumb is that you should expect to spend 1 month looking for a job for every $10,000 of salary you expect to make. So it's not at all surprising that an engineer would take 8 months to find a new job.
  - morgante 10y ago
    I don't think that's a very helpful rule of thumb. For one thing, it defies the notion of supply and demand. The hot jobs with modern skills are paying the most and also desperate to find people. It's people who favor older stacks who have trouble finding a job and get paid less.
cpprototypes 10y ago
The message is loud and clear for senior engineers (10+ years experience): startups don't want you. They may say they do, but they really don't. And the message from SV big tech is also clear: we don't want you unless you're in the inner club (Google, FB, Amazon, etc.) The solution is to avoid these companies. There's a huge world outside SV. These may be known as "boring" (banks, insurance, etc.) but they will not have the stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews". And they respect experience. And they won't have an ageist culture, it will be ok to go home early and be with family.
- Periodic 10y ago
  If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club? I used to work at Google and I did a lot of interviews. I loved when we finally got an experienced engineer in to interview. I could stop asking the toy algorithms questions and actually talk about design. But maybe they only want to hire fresh college grads? The company is sorely lacking in experience. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they can't find experienced engineers to interview is that everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to. Maybe you're in that camp of not wanting to work at Google. That's fine. I enjoyed it for a while but it wasn't for me. Just having it on my resume has opened a lot of doors.
  - gedy 10y ago
    Interviewing at Google a few years ago (with some experience) was not positive - the interviewer actively avoided talking anything about design or systems, and insisted on asking me brain teasers about weighing boxes of pennies, etc. Was a stupid waste of time for me and turned me off from Google totally.
    - ruste 10y ago
      I think I'd actually prefer that...
      - 10y ago
akadien 10y ago
I'll add another voice to the job market for experienced developers and managers. It's terrible. I have an advanced CS degree, in-demand programming skills and leadership experience. I've hunted for full-time, part-time, and contracting work for a couple of months. Interviews tend to go the following way: pass the initial interview, pass the programming test, pass the technical interview and never hear back (even after a couple of following up emails and/or phone calls). This grind really wears down one's self-confidence and outlook. It's been a depressing summer. I have over 12 months of living expenses in my savings account and a very supportive wife, so I'm going to do a startup and see how far I can take it. It feels like a better use of my time and promises some new learning experiences compared to more interviewing.
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  > I have over 12 months of living expenses in my savings account and a very supportive wive Good on you. The family support is key during this - have been unemployed and non-productive, and family support helps tremendously to get through that period. What sort of skills do you have, and what are you looking for (email me if you'd like) It definitely can get very wearing on your self-confidence. Good luck to you!
- equalarrow 10y ago
  Good luck! Truly. I think if you can't find a place that wants you, then you make your own. Or at least try. Something will work out for you, I'm sure of it. Key is to not quit, to not stop, and to always look for another way. :)
- erdevs 10y ago
  Wow, really sorry to hear about the struggle. And I hear you on this process undermining confidence. I think going for a startup is a great idea, and it's awesome you have the family support to do this. Any ideas on what the startup will be yet? Lots of friendly people here who are willing to help in whatever ways they can!
- 31reasons 10y ago
  I am in exactly the same boat. Advanced CS degree with high-demand skill set and live in CA but struggling to find job for last 2 months.

arenaninja 10y ago

I agree. On my latest job, it took more than three weeks from me accepting their offer to a starting date, normally this is fine, but I was unemployed at the time. By contrast, my previous job was ready to start weeks before I was.

mgkimsal 10y ago
How long did it take to get that offer, from when you started looking?
- arenaninja 10y ago
  Between 2-3 weeks, though I think my first interview was 1.5 weeks from when I started looking.

forgetsusername 10y ago

>However, for anyone even mid-level, I don't think this has been good advice for several years. The implication is that this advice has been good historically, but is "going away". In the article he argues to value jobs over job prospects.

mgkimsal 10y ago
"Historically" is relative - I don't think it's been good advice for at least 15 years, but it might have been 'actionable' advice in SF/NY/etc for a bit longer.

ryandrake 10y ago

Yea. I think a lot of people might think the hiring market is healthy and that there are jobs everywhere purely based on the volume of recruiter spam in their inbox. In reality, tons of companies are INTERVIEWING but nobody seems to be HIRING. I've got almost 2 decades of experience as a programmer, project manager and product manager, and I still estimate that, given the job market these days, it would take 1-6 months to line up another job if I started today. I've not seen an environment where you could "get another job on Monday" since 1999.

mgkimsal 10y ago
You're too old. This gets back to the basic 'ageism' issue in tech, which is real and alive for many, and discounted as non-existent by others (usually much younger folks!) Most of the 'older' tech folks I know take a while to get new jobs - took a friend of mine more than 9 months. This has nothing to do with actual skills/abilities, it's (at best, being charitable here) perception of skills/abilities.
- elliotec 10y ago
  This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone. Ageism is a very clear and apparent problem to anyone. As a millennial, i know a lot of people who are clearly "ageists" but almost all of them have been gen x and my millennial peers are very aware of these things. I'm not saying millenials aren't to blame as well, but anecdotally the problem seems to stem from the generation above me and the generation below those who are feeling the ageism
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    > This is not discounted as non-existent by anyone Based on conversations in some of our tech groups, yes, it is seen as non-existent by some.
  - superuser2 10y ago
    Any time ageism comes up on HN, someone trots out "the people who are complaining about being victims of ageism just haven't been keeping their skills up to date; keep learning new things and you will be fine." It generally goes unchallenged. I would consider that to be discounting ageism as nonexistent.

johnward 10y ago

I've seen co-workers, who were way more skilled than me, be on the market for almost a year. One in particular was my mentor and it took him about 8 months. Another was my direct manager and it's been over a year.

alain94040 10y ago
There is an order of magnitude fewer jobs available for manager than for regular engineers. That's why it probably would take about a month to find a job as an engineer with a few years of experience, but 6 months or more for an engineering manager with 10-20 years of total experience.
- johnward 10y ago
  That makes sense. I think my manager is going to go back to being an engineer.
initram 10y ago
The rule-of-thumb is that you should expect to spend 1 month looking for a job for every $10,000 of salary you expect to make. So it's not at all surprising that an engineer would take 8 months to find a new job.
- morgante 10y ago
  I don't think that's a very helpful rule of thumb. For one thing, it defies the notion of supply and demand. The hot jobs with modern skills are paying the most and also desperate to find people. It's people who favor older stacks who have trouble finding a job and get paid less.

cpprototypes 10y ago

The message is loud and clear for senior engineers (10+ years experience): startups don't want you. They may say they do, but they really don't. And the message from SV big tech is also clear: we don't want you unless you're in the inner club (Google, FB, Amazon, etc.) The solution is to avoid these companies. There's a huge world outside SV. These may be known as "boring" (banks, insurance, etc.) but they will not have the stupid ageist algorithm games known as "technical programming interviews". And they respect experience. And they won't have an ageist culture, it will be ok to go home early and be with family.

Periodic 10y ago
If the problem is that you can't get a job if you're not in the club, why not join the club? I used to work at Google and I did a lot of interviews. I loved when we finally got an experienced engineer in to interview. I could stop asking the toy algorithms questions and actually talk about design. But maybe they only want to hire fresh college grads? The company is sorely lacking in experience. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason they can't find experienced engineers to interview is that everyone with experience who is qualified to work at Google either works there already or doesn't want to. Maybe you're in that camp of not wanting to work at Google. That's fine. I enjoyed it for a while but it wasn't for me. Just having it on my resume has opened a lot of doors.
- gedy 10y ago
  Interviewing at Google a few years ago (with some experience) was not positive - the interviewer actively avoided talking anything about design or systems, and insisted on asking me brain teasers about weighing boxes of pennies, etc. Was a stupid waste of time for me and turned me off from Google totally.
  - ruste 10y ago
    I think I'd actually prefer that...
    - 10y ago

akadien 10y ago

I'll add another voice to the job market for experienced developers and managers. It's terrible. I have an advanced CS degree, in-demand programming skills and leadership experience. I've hunted for full-time, part-time, and contracting work for a couple of months. Interviews tend to go the following way: pass the initial interview, pass the programming test, pass the technical interview and never hear back (even after a couple of following up emails and/or phone calls). This grind really wears down one's self-confidence and outlook. It's been a depressing summer. I have over 12 months of living expenses in my savings account and a very supportive wife, so I'm going to do a startup and see how far I can take it. It feels like a better use of my time and promises some new learning experiences compared to more interviewing.

mgkimsal 10y ago
> I have over 12 months of living expenses in my savings account and a very supportive wive Good on you. The family support is key during this - have been unemployed and non-productive, and family support helps tremendously to get through that period. What sort of skills do you have, and what are you looking for (email me if you'd like) It definitely can get very wearing on your self-confidence. Good luck to you!
equalarrow 10y ago
Good luck! Truly. I think if you can't find a place that wants you, then you make your own. Or at least try. Something will work out for you, I'm sure of it. Key is to not quit, to not stop, and to always look for another way. :)
erdevs 10y ago
Wow, really sorry to hear about the struggle. And I hear you on this process undermining confidence. I think going for a startup is a great idea, and it's awesome you have the family support to do this. Any ideas on what the startup will be yet? Lots of friendly people here who are willing to help in whatever ways they can!
31reasons 10y ago
I am in exactly the same boat. Advanced CS degree with high-demand skill set and live in CA but struggling to find job for last 2 months.