7 ms·

I'm also a Swede who has also lived in SF and Beijing. The social problems of SF are certainly a bit of a shock coming from Scandinavia, and I can understand t

by msvan 10y ago

I'm also a Swede who has also lived in SF and Beijing. The social problems of SF are certainly a bit of a shock coming from Scandinavia, and I can understand the author's excitement about Beijing. But there are a couple of deal-breakers about China that would make it very tough for me to consider moving back: * You'll always be an expat. You can become an American both legally and culturally, but you cannot become Chinese in either sense. As someone who grew up surrounded by US culture, it makes more sense to live in the US than in China. * Your business is always going to be at a disadvantage compared to native businesses. I don't have any first-hand experience of this, but from what I understand, government connections are necessary to get anything going, especially in hyper-competitive China. * There's no public debate. The government has little oversight. The internet is censored. There are plenty of policies that I consider indefensible. The US has plenty of flaws too, but at least there is an open discussion about these flaws and a pathway towards fixing them. SF can be a bit insular and self-absorbed at times, but I felt more at home there than I did in Beijing.

nilspihl 10y ago
That first point is a painful reality that can't be escaped, for sure. It can be hostile here, but again - it is a frontier.
- flanbiscuit 10y ago
  What did you think of NYC? You don't really talk about it in your article, were you not there long enough?
  - nilspihl 10y ago
    I moved to New York "permanently", thinking it would last, but I found myself without a job a few months later and ended up on a flight to Beijing. I think my time in New York was negatively colored by having an office right in Times Square, but even so it was a really meaningful experience and a great place to be in. You definitely understand why it's the city that never sleeps, and it felt much more like a melting pot than California did. I enjoyed listening to and engaging with street preachers, I was grateful for all the talented musicians in the subway, and I never ran out of exciting new cuisines to try. On the negative side, though, I did feel that New Yorkers (and by this point in my life, Americans in general) could be hard to get close to - easy to approach, but hard to connect with. I don't know who I would have turned out to be if I had stayed in New York, but I imagine that would have been a great adventure of its own. Beijing feels similar to New York in many ways, and many expats that leave Beijing opt to move to New York. Facebook groups with hundreds of members help ex-Beijingers congregate in both New York and San Francisco, and I don't know that that's a coincidence. Maybe, if nothing else, I want to argue that Beijing deserves to be in the international spotlight and cultural consciousness the same way that New York and San Francisco and London are.
    - xabotage 10y ago
      >On the negative side, though, I did feel that New Yorkers (and by this point in my life, Americans in general) could be hard to get close to - easy to approach, but hard to connect with. I have found this to be true, especially after living in Germany and finding somewhat the opposite: people are hard to approach, but once you get to know them, you connect with them on a much deeper level than I ever did with people in the US. But of course, these generalizations certainly don't apply to all Americans/Germans.
    - bogomipz 10y ago
      There are better way to promote your enthusiasm for Beijing than making questionable claims of inferiority on the other cities though.
- zhemao 10y ago
  Chinese culture being less accepting of foreigners has nothing to do with it being a "frontier". If anything, it's the opposite. The US is a relatively young nation populated almost entirely by immigrants or descendants of immigrants. China is a long-established nation with a relatively homogeneous population (90% Han Chinese).
wwwdonohue 10y ago
His emphasis on social justice (re: your fourth point) is what makes this article a bit confusing to read. I don't live in SF, but from a distance it certainly looks more liberal and progressive than China: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35217218 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35217218 Häagen-Dazs or no Häagen-Dazs, I feel that SF's moral compass is screwed in slightly tighter than Beijing's.
- rimantas 10y ago
  I have the impression that that compass is a bit too sensative. In theory that should be a good thing, but in reality is just results in being less useable because you never know if the direction it's pointing to is the one you want to go.
- wtbob 10y ago
  And some of the problems of SF (e.g. the homelessness, the mentally ill, the dirtiness & shabbiness of the city) are a direct result of its liberal & progressive government.
  - piva00 10y ago
    Can you define your use of liberal and progressive? From my point of view a liberal and progressive government would have the opposite impact on homelessness and mentally ill people: by providing social support and welfare to those in need. So I got a bit confused by the usage of liberal and progressive on this sense as they're fuzzy definitions by themselves.
    - TorKlingberg 10y ago
      I think wtbob means either a) liberal & progressive government is inefficient and therefore things are bad, or b) homeless people move to SF because liberal & progressive government makes it better to be homeless there than in other places in the US. I am not sure which.
      - 10y ago
mc32 10y ago
What you say is true, and, perhaps in due time he'll change his mind. In the meantime, he's excited, he's reborn and found vigor. What more can you ask for? Sure, at some point reality will dawn but I'm sure he'll have learned a lot and will have a lot to add if he ever moves back. Or he may stay, a perennial outsider he may remain, but finding purpose in a place he might find impact. My main wish is that he forget the expat community, leave it behind and get mixed in with the locals. Too many expats (immigrants) hold on to their communities too long and fail to discover the true host country.
AJ007 10y ago
One of the short term advantages of an authoritarian state is that problems can be swept under the rug and hidden. In the longer term, it becomes far more difficult or perhaps even impossible to fix the real problem. I think one of the better explanations I have heard about the network effect (most recently explained by Reid Hoffman, although probably have heard it from others) is the big advantage occurs when a successful start up goes in to the scaling phase. Many people feel or say SF/SV sucks, its too expensive, I can do the same thing somewhere else, etc. and for almost everyone that is probably correct.
- uola 10y ago
  "One of the short term advantages of an authoritarian state is that problems can be swept under the rug and hidden." Is this in reference to China? Because in that case it's quite clearly false. There's cartoon level inequality in China. You literally see 19 year old guys in Ferraris, which they can barely drive, go past 55 year old ladies sorting trash on the sidewalk. The redeeming quality, except being hard to ignore, is that China is changing rapidly. Few knows what will happen, but it seems clear that it at least won't be the same. I feel people who go vacation in Thailand is far more hypocritical than someone who goes to work in China. But at the end of the day, it's about the people not the government.
chermanowicz 10y ago
Re: business competition, worth reading another post at the top of HN today: https://backchannel.com/when-it-comes-to-china-googles-experience-still-says-it-all-bdc4eeedd32c#.n0ane5fur https://backchannel.com/when-it-comes-to-china-googles-exper...
iamcreasy 10y ago
What's the disadvantage of being an expat in a Chinese culture?
- calbear81 10y ago
  America is a melting pot, you can become an American but you can never become "Chinese" and will always be considered an outsider. The Chinese identity is rooted in specific birthright and lineage.

by msvan 10y ago

nilspihl 10y ago

That first point is a painful reality that can't be escaped, for sure. It can be hostile here, but again - it is a frontier.

flanbiscuit 10y ago
What did you think of NYC? You don't really talk about it in your article, were you not there long enough?
- nilspihl 10y ago
  I moved to New York "permanently", thinking it would last, but I found myself without a job a few months later and ended up on a flight to Beijing. I think my time in New York was negatively colored by having an office right in Times Square, but even so it was a really meaningful experience and a great place to be in. You definitely understand why it's the city that never sleeps, and it felt much more like a melting pot than California did. I enjoyed listening to and engaging with street preachers, I was grateful for all the talented musicians in the subway, and I never ran out of exciting new cuisines to try. On the negative side, though, I did feel that New Yorkers (and by this point in my life, Americans in general) could be hard to get close to - easy to approach, but hard to connect with. I don't know who I would have turned out to be if I had stayed in New York, but I imagine that would have been a great adventure of its own. Beijing feels similar to New York in many ways, and many expats that leave Beijing opt to move to New York. Facebook groups with hundreds of members help ex-Beijingers congregate in both New York and San Francisco, and I don't know that that's a coincidence. Maybe, if nothing else, I want to argue that Beijing deserves to be in the international spotlight and cultural consciousness the same way that New York and San Francisco and London are.
  - xabotage 10y ago
    >On the negative side, though, I did feel that New Yorkers (and by this point in my life, Americans in general) could be hard to get close to - easy to approach, but hard to connect with. I have found this to be true, especially after living in Germany and finding somewhat the opposite: people are hard to approach, but once you get to know them, you connect with them on a much deeper level than I ever did with people in the US. But of course, these generalizations certainly don't apply to all Americans/Germans.
  - bogomipz 10y ago
    There are better way to promote your enthusiasm for Beijing than making questionable claims of inferiority on the other cities though.
zhemao 10y ago
Chinese culture being less accepting of foreigners has nothing to do with it being a "frontier". If anything, it's the opposite. The US is a relatively young nation populated almost entirely by immigrants or descendants of immigrants. China is a long-established nation with a relatively homogeneous population (90% Han Chinese).

wwwdonohue 10y ago

His emphasis on social justice (re: your fourth point) is what makes this article a bit confusing to read. I don't live in SF, but from a distance it certainly looks more liberal and progressive than China: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35217218 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35217218 Häagen-Dazs or no Häagen-Dazs, I feel that SF's moral compass is screwed in slightly tighter than Beijing's.

rimantas 10y ago
I have the impression that that compass is a bit too sensative. In theory that should be a good thing, but in reality is just results in being less useable because you never know if the direction it's pointing to is the one you want to go.
wtbob 10y ago
And some of the problems of SF (e.g. the homelessness, the mentally ill, the dirtiness & shabbiness of the city) are a direct result of its liberal & progressive government.
- piva00 10y ago
  Can you define your use of liberal and progressive? From my point of view a liberal and progressive government would have the opposite impact on homelessness and mentally ill people: by providing social support and welfare to those in need. So I got a bit confused by the usage of liberal and progressive on this sense as they're fuzzy definitions by themselves.
  - TorKlingberg 10y ago
    I think wtbob means either a) liberal & progressive government is inefficient and therefore things are bad, or b) homeless people move to SF because liberal & progressive government makes it better to be homeless there than in other places in the US. I am not sure which.
    - 10y ago

mc32 10y ago

What you say is true, and, perhaps in due time he'll change his mind. In the meantime, he's excited, he's reborn and found vigor. What more can you ask for? Sure, at some point reality will dawn but I'm sure he'll have learned a lot and will have a lot to add if he ever moves back. Or he may stay, a perennial outsider he may remain, but finding purpose in a place he might find impact. My main wish is that he forget the expat community, leave it behind and get mixed in with the locals. Too many expats (immigrants) hold on to their communities too long and fail to discover the true host country.

AJ007 10y ago

One of the short term advantages of an authoritarian state is that problems can be swept under the rug and hidden. In the longer term, it becomes far more difficult or perhaps even impossible to fix the real problem. I think one of the better explanations I have heard about the network effect (most recently explained by Reid Hoffman, although probably have heard it from others) is the big advantage occurs when a successful start up goes in to the scaling phase. Many people feel or say SF/SV sucks, its too expensive, I can do the same thing somewhere else, etc. and for almost everyone that is probably correct.

uola 10y ago
"One of the short term advantages of an authoritarian state is that problems can be swept under the rug and hidden." Is this in reference to China? Because in that case it's quite clearly false. There's cartoon level inequality in China. You literally see 19 year old guys in Ferraris, which they can barely drive, go past 55 year old ladies sorting trash on the sidewalk. The redeeming quality, except being hard to ignore, is that China is changing rapidly. Few knows what will happen, but it seems clear that it at least won't be the same. I feel people who go vacation in Thailand is far more hypocritical than someone who goes to work in China. But at the end of the day, it's about the people not the government.

chermanowicz 10y ago

Re: business competition, worth reading another post at the top of HN today: https://backchannel.com/when-it-comes-to-china-googles-experience-still-says-it-all-bdc4eeedd32c#.n0ane5fur https://backchannel.com/when-it-comes-to-china-googles-exper...

iamcreasy 10y ago

What's the disadvantage of being an expat in a Chinese culture?

calbear81 10y ago
America is a melting pot, you can become an American but you can never become "Chinese" and will always be considered an outsider. The Chinese identity is rooted in specific birthright and lineage.