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That doesn't make any sense. Having seen a fair amount of shit, I go back and forth. Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would de

That doesn't make any sense. Having seen a fair amount of shit, I go back and forth. Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would definitely create more addicts. This isn't a headache, that is theft. Clearly, there is a difference between opportunistically taking a few pills and working your way into someones life to rob them repeatedly. This reflects on the person and while I don't know if I made up my mind, I can certainly intellectually understand why society has banned this.

encoderer 10y ago
Addiction is way less harmful if it's legal. Clean needles, consistent dosages, better healthcare, no stealing/theft/lying/etc. If it's legal it's just a physical dependence. Other physical dependencies we have include: food, water, and air and we manage those OK. I agree, heroin is nasty stuff. But, we cannot eradicate it. In a free and liberal society, it's a farce that it's even a choice. It's a choice between denial and acceptance of reality. Accept it, lean in, fix things in a way that goes with the grain of human nature, not against it. (E.g. it's human nature to assume harm won't befall them so they are not dissuaded from a harmful thing. So, reduce the harm as much as you can.)
- knucklesandwich 10y ago
  I'm generally in favor of some form of legalization, but I feel like this conversation has a tendency to become very hand-wavy and legalization can be overly evangelized as a panacea for systemic problems related to addiction. Firstly, what does legalization mean? Legal to prescribe? Legal to purchase over the counter after a certain age? Full, unrestricted legality? In weaker forms of these I think there's a case to be made that a black market doesn't disappear, but perhaps changes its business model. There's still benefits to be gained, in terms of more safety to addicts from impurities, but it seems difficult to claim that you can really control an addicts dosage when a black market can arise to meet their wants for higher dosages. I don't think we should criminalize addiction directly, but I think that's really only part of the picture. Part of the troubles of being an addict stem from stigmatization. We need to evolve from seeing addicts as degenerates and liars and instead as people suffering. We need a social climate that encourages addicts to seek help without social or criminal penalties. We need more addiction treatment programs, and we need treatment programs that don't impose their own judgements about getting clean through substitute drugs. We probably need to have lesser penalties for crimes that may be related to addiction (i.e. petty theft to pay for an addiction) or else we're simply criminalizing the addict in another way.
paulcole 10y ago
> Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would definitely create more addicts. Didn't Portugal legalize heroin and realize that this was completely false?
- paulojreis 10y ago
  Decriminalized. It's still illegal to consume, but not a crime - people aren't sent to jail or fined. Selling, of course, is illegal and a crime.
adrusi 10y ago
I can certainly intellectually understand why society has banned this. But don't you see that opiates only make people do these horrible things because they're banned!? Opiates don't turn people into devastatingly manipulative thieves, they turn them into people who will do anything to get opiates. If you changed two things, junkies would be no more likely to engage in destructive behaviors like theft than alcholic or smokers. Those two things are making opiates cheap and easy to get (regulate them like cigarettes, say), and eliminating the employment stigma. Opiates aren't great for productivity, but they are much less of an impairment than alcohol, and alcoholics are almost always functional unless they also suffer mental health issues. Opiates slow down thoughts and movements somewhat, and they make you feel really good, but they don't make you stupid or rash like alcohol. That's not to say that there wouldn't be problems with opiates. You'd probably have as many people on opiates on the road as we currently have drunk drivers (again, they probably wouldn't be as bad, because while opiates slow reaction times and reduce alertness, they don't make the user think they can do things they can't). And junkies would probably still squander their potential to an extent, and mothers of brilliant children who take up opiates instead of going to college might be devastated. But I think most of the new addicts that would be created by legalization would be people who would otherwise become alcoholics, people just looking for an escape, and society prefering clean opiates over alcohol would do wonders for public health.
- vonklaus 10y ago
  I understand this more than most. The solution that fits best with my experience and ideology is probably a combination of a few things. Just to caveat, this is a thought experiment and while a lot has been done, there is so much friction it is absurd. I would like to see heroin decriminalized with specific designated zones (cities/towns) which fully supply and allow heroin use. If you are caught with heroin outside of a zone you must pay a fine. If you can't pay you are offered rehab or transportation to the administration zone. Zones provide free narcotics and needles, ect and have adjacent treatment and medical facilities. This experiment has been run and was somewhat successful. The thought process in my above statement is that broke heroin users can not interact with society. If a user wants to simply do heroin, there can be a designated development/town that allows it. If a user is outside of the zone, they must have the money to pay a fine (stay well) or they need to go to rehab or a place that allows drugs. That way, normal people can interact and many users can function in society. If they can not they will be supplied with drugs outside of society until they regain financial independence or make the decision to enter treatment. However, since this is impossible, I do not expect a legit solution to ever be implemented and thus am not sure where I land. So I would support efforts that compromise in a similar way to my above solution, but really not worth thinking much about as the gov (in US) has not even legally recognized recreational marijuana.

encoderer 10y ago

Addiction is way less harmful if it's legal. Clean needles, consistent dosages, better healthcare, no stealing/theft/lying/etc. If it's legal it's just a physical dependence. Other physical dependencies we have include: food, water, and air and we manage those OK. I agree, heroin is nasty stuff. But, we cannot eradicate it. In a free and liberal society, it's a farce that it's even a choice. It's a choice between denial and acceptance of reality. Accept it, lean in, fix things in a way that goes with the grain of human nature, not against it. (E.g. it's human nature to assume harm won't befall them so they are not dissuaded from a harmful thing. So, reduce the harm as much as you can.)

knucklesandwich 10y ago
I'm generally in favor of some form of legalization, but I feel like this conversation has a tendency to become very hand-wavy and legalization can be overly evangelized as a panacea for systemic problems related to addiction. Firstly, what does legalization mean? Legal to prescribe? Legal to purchase over the counter after a certain age? Full, unrestricted legality? In weaker forms of these I think there's a case to be made that a black market doesn't disappear, but perhaps changes its business model. There's still benefits to be gained, in terms of more safety to addicts from impurities, but it seems difficult to claim that you can really control an addicts dosage when a black market can arise to meet their wants for higher dosages. I don't think we should criminalize addiction directly, but I think that's really only part of the picture. Part of the troubles of being an addict stem from stigmatization. We need to evolve from seeing addicts as degenerates and liars and instead as people suffering. We need a social climate that encourages addicts to seek help without social or criminal penalties. We need more addiction treatment programs, and we need treatment programs that don't impose their own judgements about getting clean through substitute drugs. We probably need to have lesser penalties for crimes that may be related to addiction (i.e. petty theft to pay for an addiction) or else we're simply criminalizing the addict in another way.

paulcole 10y ago

> Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would definitely create more addicts. Didn't Portugal legalize heroin and realize that this was completely false?

paulojreis 10y ago
Decriminalized. It's still illegal to consume, but not a crime - people aren't sent to jail or fined. Selling, of course, is illegal and a crime.

adrusi 10y ago

I can certainly intellectually understand why society has banned this. But don't you see that opiates only make people do these horrible things because they're banned!? Opiates don't turn people into devastatingly manipulative thieves, they turn them into people who will do anything to get opiates. If you changed two things, junkies would be no more likely to engage in destructive behaviors like theft than alcholic or smokers. Those two things are making opiates cheap and easy to get (regulate them like cigarettes, say), and eliminating the employment stigma. Opiates aren't great for productivity, but they are much less of an impairment than alcohol, and alcoholics are almost always functional unless they also suffer mental health issues. Opiates slow down thoughts and movements somewhat, and they make you feel really good, but they don't make you stupid or rash like alcohol. That's not to say that there wouldn't be problems with opiates. You'd probably have as many people on opiates on the road as we currently have drunk drivers (again, they probably wouldn't be as bad, because while opiates slow reaction times and reduce alertness, they don't make the user think they can do things they can't). And junkies would probably still squander their potential to an extent, and mothers of brilliant children who take up opiates instead of going to college might be devastated. But I think most of the new addicts that would be created by legalization would be people who would otherwise become alcoholics, people just looking for an escape, and society prefering clean opiates over alcohol would do wonders for public health.

vonklaus 10y ago
I understand this more than most. The solution that fits best with my experience and ideology is probably a combination of a few things. Just to caveat, this is a thought experiment and while a lot has been done, there is so much friction it is absurd. I would like to see heroin decriminalized with specific designated zones (cities/towns) which fully supply and allow heroin use. If you are caught with heroin outside of a zone you must pay a fine. If you can't pay you are offered rehab or transportation to the administration zone. Zones provide free narcotics and needles, ect and have adjacent treatment and medical facilities. This experiment has been run and was somewhat successful. The thought process in my above statement is that broke heroin users can not interact with society. If a user wants to simply do heroin, there can be a designated development/town that allows it. If a user is outside of the zone, they must have the money to pay a fine (stay well) or they need to go to rehab or a place that allows drugs. That way, normal people can interact and many users can function in society. If they can not they will be supplied with drugs outside of society until they regain financial independence or make the decision to enter treatment. However, since this is impossible, I do not expect a legit solution to ever be implemented and thus am not sure where I land. So I would support efforts that compromise in a similar way to my above solution, but really not worth thinking much about as the gov (in US) has not even legally recognized recreational marijuana.