6 ms·

If someone was suffering from pain and couldn't even buy Ibuprofen due to an oppressive government and shitty societal view, one might not be surprised if they

If someone was suffering from pain and couldn't even buy Ibuprofen due to an oppressive government and shitty societal view, one might not be surprised if they steal to get life-changing medicine. The fact a "normal" person would rob an older woman for an essential medicine should reflect more on the society than the patient.

downandout 10y ago
I'm pretty sure the only pain she was suffering from was that of not having enough drugs in her system at any given time.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  And that's not legitimate? Withdrawal is probably one of the worst physical experiences someone can go through. On top of that, do you know why she was on the medication in the first place? Would you have the same attitude if she was taking SSRIs for depression, couldn't afford them (or wasn't allowed to have them!), and stole them instead?
  - downandout 10y ago
    I don't know all of the details as to how she became addicted to them, but it certainly wasn't a financial issue. Her husband owned a chain of auto body shops and was by all accounts worth at least a few million dollars.
    - MichaelGG 10y ago
      So the predicate "wasn't allowed" is even more accurate. She was prohibited, legally, to get properly labelled medication. Again, would you have the same attitude if her options for depression were "steal SSRIs from a pharma company" or "buy from someone that gets unlabeled, unmonitored shit from China, resold by whoever?"
      - random_rr 10y ago
        There are better times to argue for legalization. You're trying too hard to make a point of this. Junkies sometimes do shitty stuff.
        MichaelGG 10y ago
        Legalization would avoid the shitty stuff part of junkies, for the most part. Or at least mitigate it to a huge extent, since costs would go down. Oxycodone, for instance, goes for about 30-100x on the street than at a grocery store. If gas was 50x more expensive, we'd probably see some desperate behaviour for a while.
        tigershark 10y ago
        How can anyone that can't even work because lives his life in a continuous high afford something even if it is cheaper without stealing?
        MichaelGG 10y ago
        You'd be surprised at just how many professionals are on opiates. With those hundreds of millions of prescriptions, where are they all going? Maybe your experience will differ. Keep your eyes out for pinned pupils when next dealing with lawyers, doctors, engineers, executives, etc.
        bobdole1234 10y ago
        You know a few functional alcoholics right now, and you likely don't even know it. You also almost certainly know someone addicted to opiates and have no idea. There's only a small percentage of drug users who lack the ability to regulate enough to prevent a complete destruction of their lives, but those people will generally destroy their lives with anything, be it opiates or beanie baby mania. The rest of humanity can mostly hold their shit together, and you'll have no idea.
      - bduerst 10y ago
        Forgive me if this is wrong, but are you really arguing for the over-the-counter sale of chemically addicting drugs, premised on the actions of junkies? Won't that just create more junkies? Alcohol is chemically addictive, sold over the counter, and is currently the fourth leading cause of preventable death in the U.S.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      It often starts with an injury. I had a chronic back problem, for which I was prescribed a whole bunch of painkillers. After Vioxx and Celebrex were pulled, that was the only real option for any kind of relief. Those drugs give me a headache, and I didn't take them... But if I did, I would have taken hundreds of the things for a couple of years.
vonklaus 10y ago
That doesn't make any sense. Having seen a fair amount of shit, I go back and forth. Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would definitely create more addicts. This isn't a headache, that is theft. Clearly, there is a difference between opportunistically taking a few pills and working your way into someones life to rob them repeatedly. This reflects on the person and while I don't know if I made up my mind, I can certainly intellectually understand why society has banned this.
- encoderer 10y ago
  Addiction is way less harmful if it's legal. Clean needles, consistent dosages, better healthcare, no stealing/theft/lying/etc. If it's legal it's just a physical dependence. Other physical dependencies we have include: food, water, and air and we manage those OK. I agree, heroin is nasty stuff. But, we cannot eradicate it. In a free and liberal society, it's a farce that it's even a choice. It's a choice between denial and acceptance of reality. Accept it, lean in, fix things in a way that goes with the grain of human nature, not against it. (E.g. it's human nature to assume harm won't befall them so they are not dissuaded from a harmful thing. So, reduce the harm as much as you can.)
  - knucklesandwich 10y ago
    I'm generally in favor of some form of legalization, but I feel like this conversation has a tendency to become very hand-wavy and legalization can be overly evangelized as a panacea for systemic problems related to addiction. Firstly, what does legalization mean? Legal to prescribe? Legal to purchase over the counter after a certain age? Full, unrestricted legality? In weaker forms of these I think there's a case to be made that a black market doesn't disappear, but perhaps changes its business model. There's still benefits to be gained, in terms of more safety to addicts from impurities, but it seems difficult to claim that you can really control an addicts dosage when a black market can arise to meet their wants for higher dosages. I don't think we should criminalize addiction directly, but I think that's really only part of the picture. Part of the troubles of being an addict stem from stigmatization. We need to evolve from seeing addicts as degenerates and liars and instead as people suffering. We need a social climate that encourages addicts to seek help without social or criminal penalties. We need more addiction treatment programs, and we need treatment programs that don't impose their own judgements about getting clean through substitute drugs. We probably need to have lesser penalties for crimes that may be related to addiction (i.e. petty theft to pay for an addiction) or else we're simply criminalizing the addict in another way.

downandout 10y ago

I'm pretty sure the only pain she was suffering from was that of not having enough drugs in her system at any given time.

MichaelGG 10y ago
And that's not legitimate? Withdrawal is probably one of the worst physical experiences someone can go through. On top of that, do you know why she was on the medication in the first place? Would you have the same attitude if she was taking SSRIs for depression, couldn't afford them (or wasn't allowed to have them!), and stole them instead?
- downandout 10y ago
  I don't know all of the details as to how she became addicted to them, but it certainly wasn't a financial issue. Her husband owned a chain of auto body shops and was by all accounts worth at least a few million dollars.
  - MichaelGG 10y ago
    So the predicate "wasn't allowed" is even more accurate. She was prohibited, legally, to get properly labelled medication. Again, would you have the same attitude if her options for depression were "steal SSRIs from a pharma company" or "buy from someone that gets unlabeled, unmonitored shit from China, resold by whoever?"
    - random_rr 10y ago
      There are better times to argue for legalization. You're trying too hard to make a point of this. Junkies sometimes do shitty stuff.
      - MichaelGG 10y ago
        Legalization would avoid the shitty stuff part of junkies, for the most part. Or at least mitigate it to a huge extent, since costs would go down. Oxycodone, for instance, goes for about 30-100x on the street than at a grocery store. If gas was 50x more expensive, we'd probably see some desperate behaviour for a while.
        tigershark 10y ago
        How can anyone that can't even work because lives his life in a continuous high afford something even if it is cheaper without stealing?
        MichaelGG 10y ago
        You'd be surprised at just how many professionals are on opiates. With those hundreds of millions of prescriptions, where are they all going? Maybe your experience will differ. Keep your eyes out for pinned pupils when next dealing with lawyers, doctors, engineers, executives, etc.
        bobdole1234 10y ago
        You know a few functional alcoholics right now, and you likely don't even know it. You also almost certainly know someone addicted to opiates and have no idea. There's only a small percentage of drug users who lack the ability to regulate enough to prevent a complete destruction of their lives, but those people will generally destroy their lives with anything, be it opiates or beanie baby mania. The rest of humanity can mostly hold their shit together, and you'll have no idea.
    - bduerst 10y ago
      Forgive me if this is wrong, but are you really arguing for the over-the-counter sale of chemically addicting drugs, premised on the actions of junkies? Won't that just create more junkies? Alcohol is chemically addictive, sold over the counter, and is currently the fourth leading cause of preventable death in the U.S.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    It often starts with an injury. I had a chronic back problem, for which I was prescribed a whole bunch of painkillers. After Vioxx and Celebrex were pulled, that was the only real option for any kind of relief. Those drugs give me a headache, and I didn't take them... But if I did, I would have taken hundreds of the things for a couple of years.

vonklaus 10y ago

That doesn't make any sense. Having seen a fair amount of shit, I go back and forth. Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would definitely create more addicts. This isn't a headache, that is theft. Clearly, there is a difference between opportunistically taking a few pills and working your way into someones life to rob them repeatedly. This reflects on the person and while I don't know if I made up my mind, I can certainly intellectually understand why society has banned this.

encoderer 10y ago
Addiction is way less harmful if it's legal. Clean needles, consistent dosages, better healthcare, no stealing/theft/lying/etc. If it's legal it's just a physical dependence. Other physical dependencies we have include: food, water, and air and we manage those OK. I agree, heroin is nasty stuff. But, we cannot eradicate it. In a free and liberal society, it's a farce that it's even a choice. It's a choice between denial and acceptance of reality. Accept it, lean in, fix things in a way that goes with the grain of human nature, not against it. (E.g. it's human nature to assume harm won't befall them so they are not dissuaded from a harmful thing. So, reduce the harm as much as you can.)
- knucklesandwich 10y ago
  I'm generally in favor of some form of legalization, but I feel like this conversation has a tendency to become very hand-wavy and legalization can be overly evangelized as a panacea for systemic problems related to addiction. Firstly, what does legalization mean? Legal to prescribe? Legal to purchase over the counter after a certain age? Full, unrestricted legality? In weaker forms of these I think there's a case to be made that a black market doesn't disappear, but perhaps changes its business model. There's still benefits to be gained, in terms of more safety to addicts from impurities, but it seems difficult to claim that you can really control an addicts dosage when a black market can arise to meet their wants for higher dosages. I don't think we should criminalize addiction directly, but I think that's really only part of the picture. Part of the troubles of being an addict stem from stigmatization. We need to evolve from seeing addicts as degenerates and liars and instead as people suffering. We need a social climate that encourages addicts to seek help without social or criminal penalties. We need more addiction treatment programs, and we need treatment programs that don't impose their own judgements about getting clean through substitute drugs. We probably need to have lesser penalties for crimes that may be related to addiction (i.e. petty theft to pay for an addiction) or else we're simply criminalizing the addict in another way.