6 ms·

I'll tell you what the USGOV isn't doing. They're not jailing twitter dissidents. They're not sniping protestors from rooftops. They aren't destroying the credi

by rrggrr 10y ago

I'll tell you what the USGOV isn't doing. They're not jailing twitter dissidents. They're not sniping protestors from rooftops. They aren't destroying the credit ratings of political dissenters. They aren't even doing a very good job of using Twitter or other technologies to communicate all the good humanitarian work the USGOV does in the world. There are times I wish the US would disengage from the world so humanity can be reminded of what its like to live without a generally benevolent hegemonic power.

thansharp 10y ago
They are forcing countries to extradite accused citizens while refusing to do the same. They have gitmo. They're asking companies like MSFT to collect data that even MSFT is not legally allowed to do. So, yeah, they're more 'covert' than others, but not necessarily more benevolent.
- rrggrr 10y ago
  As I said, I'd like you to live in a world without US humanitarian and foreign aid for awhile. A world where the USGOV doesn't project its power in all the places that offend you. I give it four to six weeks before the world devolves into a nasty, brutish chaos.
  - funkysquid 10y ago
    I'm not sure gitmo qualifies as humanitarian aid.
  - finid 10y ago
    Dude, without the USA, the world will do just fine. Sure, there will still be wars, but when are men not fighting over one thing or the other? Have you asked the people of Libya, Iraq and Syria what their world would be like without the USA?
    - BookmarkSaver 10y ago
      >Dude, without the USA, the world will do just fine. Sure, there will still be wars, but when are men not fighting over one thing or the other? Bullshit defense. There has never been a period in history with fewer wars and proportionally lower fatality rates due to violence. The existence of war at all does not somehow invalidate the value of American hegemony.
      - finid 10y ago
        > There has never been a period in history with fewer wars and proportionally lower fatality rates due to violence. How long is your time frame? Many more people have died after Sep. 2001 than in the decades prior. > The existence of war at all does not somehow invalidate the value of American hegemony. What you seem to forget or don't realize is that the wars of the last decade are a direct result of what we're doing to maintain that American hegemony. So while it's been good for you because you're watching the wars on TV and reading it on the Internet, it's been very bad for those on whose land the wars are being fought.
        nl 10y ago
        How long is your time frame? Many more people have died after Sep. 2001 than in the decades prior. That just isn't true at all[1]. Since the end of the Second Congo War[3] (in 2003) there hasn't been a conflict that's come close to 1MM causalities. While the Iraq, Afghan and Syrian wars have been brutal and very well publicised they haven't been anywhere near as severe in terms of causalities. (Don't take this as a comment either way on US policies though) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_wars_by_death_toll.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_wars_by_death_tol... [2] http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/globally-deaths-war-and-murder-are-decline-180950237/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/globally-deaths-war... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War
  - ap22213 10y ago
    As an American, I fantasize about the day when our 325 million no longer try to manage the other 7 billion. But, yet I worry that when that day comes, the ideas of American liberalism will be long gone. The US has big issues and internal ideological conflicts and many inconsistencies, for sure. But, if you randomly sample the population you'll find that most of us want peace, freedom, success and happiness for everyone.
    - wil421 10y ago
      Why do you say the 325 million? American citizens != American government. Most people I talk to don't like what the government is doing.
      - fit2rule 10y ago
        The American government gets its powers from its citizens, so yes, actually, American citizens == American government. Americans are responsible for the acts of their government: Period. Whether you like it or not.
    - ionised 10y ago
      > if you randomly sample the population you'll find that most of us want peace, freedom, success and happiness for everyone. It's a shame that doesn't come across in US foreign and economic policies.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    > A world where the USGOV doesn't project its power in all the places that offend you. I give it four to six weeks before the world devolves into a nasty, brutish chaos. Once upon a time, the British Empire took it upon itself to civilize the uncivilized world, bringing heavy-handed order in many faraway 'nasty, brutish' places for queen and country. The sun has since set on the British Empire, and yet the world is doing just fine. Empires rise and they fall all the time.
    - _ao789 10y ago
      As will many more
finid 10y ago
Nice! That same exceptionalism thing, eh! Sure, we're not jailing Twitter dissidents, but do you know what we do to whistleblowers? One of our whistleblowers has been forced to take up residence in Russia. Of course we're not sniping protesters from rooftops, but our friends do it when we egg them on to further our interests in foreign lands.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Snowden isn't a whistleblower.
  - finid 10y ago
    What was (is) he? A spy? Mole? Enemy combatant?
  - ionised 10y ago
    He's the dictionary definition of one.
pdkl95 10y ago
> They're not jailing twitter dissidents. > They aren't destroying the credit ratings of political dissenters. You should probably listen to this talk. https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7443-the_price_of_dissent https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7443-the_price_of_dissent While it's primarily about the UK, the USGOV is defiantly involved. (note: I trust that this crowd is mature enough to not let Applebaum's introduction taint the important message by the actual speakers)
Steer 10y ago
I feel this is a straw man. I'm Swedish, but have always loved the US for some strange reason. I still do, but that doesn't mean that the US is perfect in any way, shape or form. It is a fantastic country with many flaws. You are obviously right in much of what you write, but that does not excuse a lot of the things that NSA et. al. does in the name of freedom. My point is just that we should not hold ourselves to the lowest of standards ("We're better than <non-democratic country" is not a good excuse).
- kobayashi 10y ago
  Au contraire, it is actually you who is creating a Straw Man. rrggrr doesn't write that the US is perfect, but rather, s/he writes that the US is a "generally benevolent hegemonic power".
  - ionised 10y ago
    > generally benevolent It's not benevolent, that's pure propaganda at work. It's a nation that acts in its own interests like any other. It just disguises them extremely well.
vacri 10y ago
> They're not sniping protestors from rooftops. Only killing people on the other side of the world with drones. And if the wrong people are killed, well, 'shit happens', let's just call those dead innocents 'collateral damage'. > There are times I wish the US would disengage from the world so humanity can be reminded of what its like to live without a generally benevolent hegemonic power. You should be made aware that the US isn't being a 'generally benevolent hegemonic power' out of the goodness of it's heart. It's doing so to protect its political and economic interests. By all means, elect Trump, and secede back into isolationism. It's going to suck for you as well, as all that economic power you get from sweetheart deals from your military projection? It's going to fade away. As for foreign aid, US foreign aid is, per capita, well below that of other western democracies. It's always amusing when USians pretend like they're doing the world an altruistic favour by being 'world cop', when in reality they get plenty of kickbacks. Ask yourself this: if the US was really the 'altruistic world cop', then why does it ignore so many trouble spots?
mindslight 10y ago
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
grecy 10y ago
Awesome, the USGOV is doing a better job than governemnts in undeveloped (3rd world) and developing (2nd world) countries. That's great. Do you want a medal for that? C'mon, aim higher. You're supposed to be in the big leagues now, compare yourself to developed countries if you want to see how well the USGOV is doing.

by rrggrr 10y ago

thansharp 10y ago

They are forcing countries to extradite accused citizens while refusing to do the same. They have gitmo. They're asking companies like MSFT to collect data that even MSFT is not legally allowed to do. So, yeah, they're more 'covert' than others, but not necessarily more benevolent.

rrggrr 10y ago
As I said, I'd like you to live in a world without US humanitarian and foreign aid for awhile. A world where the USGOV doesn't project its power in all the places that offend you. I give it four to six weeks before the world devolves into a nasty, brutish chaos.
- funkysquid 10y ago
  I'm not sure gitmo qualifies as humanitarian aid.
- finid 10y ago
  Dude, without the USA, the world will do just fine. Sure, there will still be wars, but when are men not fighting over one thing or the other? Have you asked the people of Libya, Iraq and Syria what their world would be like without the USA?
  - BookmarkSaver 10y ago
    >Dude, without the USA, the world will do just fine. Sure, there will still be wars, but when are men not fighting over one thing or the other? Bullshit defense. There has never been a period in history with fewer wars and proportionally lower fatality rates due to violence. The existence of war at all does not somehow invalidate the value of American hegemony.
    - finid 10y ago
      > There has never been a period in history with fewer wars and proportionally lower fatality rates due to violence. How long is your time frame? Many more people have died after Sep. 2001 than in the decades prior. > The existence of war at all does not somehow invalidate the value of American hegemony. What you seem to forget or don't realize is that the wars of the last decade are a direct result of what we're doing to maintain that American hegemony. So while it's been good for you because you're watching the wars on TV and reading it on the Internet, it's been very bad for those on whose land the wars are being fought.
      - nl 10y ago
        How long is your time frame? Many more people have died after Sep. 2001 than in the decades prior. That just isn't true at all[1]. Since the end of the Second Congo War[3] (in 2003) there hasn't been a conflict that's come close to 1MM causalities. While the Iraq, Afghan and Syrian wars have been brutal and very well publicised they haven't been anywhere near as severe in terms of causalities. (Don't take this as a comment either way on US policies though) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_wars_by_death_toll.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:List_of_wars_by_death_tol... [2] http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/globally-deaths-war-and-murder-are-decline-180950237/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/globally-deaths-war... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War
- ap22213 10y ago
  As an American, I fantasize about the day when our 325 million no longer try to manage the other 7 billion. But, yet I worry that when that day comes, the ideas of American liberalism will be long gone. The US has big issues and internal ideological conflicts and many inconsistencies, for sure. But, if you randomly sample the population you'll find that most of us want peace, freedom, success and happiness for everyone.
  - wil421 10y ago
    Why do you say the 325 million? American citizens != American government. Most people I talk to don't like what the government is doing.
    - fit2rule 10y ago
      The American government gets its powers from its citizens, so yes, actually, American citizens == American government. Americans are responsible for the acts of their government: Period. Whether you like it or not.
  - ionised 10y ago
    > if you randomly sample the population you'll find that most of us want peace, freedom, success and happiness for everyone. It's a shame that doesn't come across in US foreign and economic policies.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > A world where the USGOV doesn't project its power in all the places that offend you. I give it four to six weeks before the world devolves into a nasty, brutish chaos. Once upon a time, the British Empire took it upon itself to civilize the uncivilized world, bringing heavy-handed order in many faraway 'nasty, brutish' places for queen and country. The sun has since set on the British Empire, and yet the world is doing just fine. Empires rise and they fall all the time.
  - _ao789 10y ago
    As will many more

finid 10y ago

Nice! That same exceptionalism thing, eh! Sure, we're not jailing Twitter dissidents, but do you know what we do to whistleblowers? One of our whistleblowers has been forced to take up residence in Russia. Of course we're not sniping protesters from rooftops, but our friends do it when we egg them on to further our interests in foreign lands.

strictnein 10y ago
Snowden isn't a whistleblower.
- finid 10y ago
  What was (is) he? A spy? Mole? Enemy combatant?
- ionised 10y ago
  He's the dictionary definition of one.

pdkl95 10y ago

> They're not jailing twitter dissidents. > They aren't destroying the credit ratings of political dissenters. You should probably listen to this talk. https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7443-the_price_of_dissent https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7443-the_price_of_dissent While it's primarily about the UK, the USGOV is defiantly involved. (note: I trust that this crowd is mature enough to not let Applebaum's introduction taint the important message by the actual speakers)

Steer 10y ago

I feel this is a straw man. I'm Swedish, but have always loved the US for some strange reason. I still do, but that doesn't mean that the US is perfect in any way, shape or form. It is a fantastic country with many flaws. You are obviously right in much of what you write, but that does not excuse a lot of the things that NSA et. al. does in the name of freedom. My point is just that we should not hold ourselves to the lowest of standards ("We're better than <non-democratic country" is not a good excuse).

kobayashi 10y ago
Au contraire, it is actually you who is creating a Straw Man. rrggrr doesn't write that the US is perfect, but rather, s/he writes that the US is a "generally benevolent hegemonic power".
- ionised 10y ago
  > generally benevolent It's not benevolent, that's pure propaganda at work. It's a nation that acts in its own interests like any other. It just disguises them extremely well.

vacri 10y ago

> They're not sniping protestors from rooftops. Only killing people on the other side of the world with drones. And if the wrong people are killed, well, 'shit happens', let's just call those dead innocents 'collateral damage'. > There are times I wish the US would disengage from the world so humanity can be reminded of what its like to live without a generally benevolent hegemonic power. You should be made aware that the US isn't being a 'generally benevolent hegemonic power' out of the goodness of it's heart. It's doing so to protect its political and economic interests. By all means, elect Trump, and secede back into isolationism. It's going to suck for you as well, as all that economic power you get from sweetheart deals from your military projection? It's going to fade away. As for foreign aid, US foreign aid is, per capita, well below that of other western democracies. It's always amusing when USians pretend like they're doing the world an altruistic favour by being 'world cop', when in reality they get plenty of kickbacks. Ask yourself this: if the US was really the 'altruistic world cop', then why does it ignore so many trouble spots?

mindslight 10y ago

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

grecy 10y ago

Awesome, the USGOV is doing a better job than governemnts in undeveloped (3rd world) and developing (2nd world) countries. That's great. Do you want a medal for that? C'mon, aim higher. You're supposed to be in the big leagues now, compare yourself to developed countries if you want to see how well the USGOV is doing.