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Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed car
by blahi 10y ago
Sorry, but this is straight up proletariat bull. You get hired, you get paid. If it doesn't pan out, you go somewhere else. You have 0 risk and a guaranteed career. And sorry, but 100k for a javascript "engineer" is more than the "fair share" in my opinion, but it's a market, so it is what it is.
- samsonradu 10y agoTrue, but it doesn't work like that in many parts of the world. I personally know Javascript engineers working for 20k just for geographical reasons and, like GP said, they should all smarten up imo.
- DicksenZuider 10y agoPrices for goods and services are determined by supply and demand, not by what, "in your opinion", is "fair".
- usaphp 10y agoCan you tell me the reason behind you thinking that "100k for a JavaScript engeneer is more than the "fair share"? And why you highlight the word "engeneer"?
- blahi 10y agoBecause you can achieve high proficiency rather quickly. Contrast this with engineers who optimize compliers who need much deeper and broader knowledge to make decisions in their day to day work, yet have the same comp. How is this fair? Again, it's a market and it is what it is.
- usaphp 10y agoI think there is a flaw in your logic here. You are saying "you can achieve high proficiency rather quickly", but at the same time you are saying that "it's market and it's what it is". Since it's a market - it means there is a high demand in those "JavaScript engineers", and if it's so easy to become proficient then what prevents those "engineers who optimize compilers" to become proficient in JavaScript and compete in that market? Maybe it's not that easy to become somebody who can manage to bring enough value by "just" being a "JavaScript engeneer" for whom employees can pay 100k+ wages?
- ksk 10y ago>and if it's so easy to become proficient then what prevents those "engineers who optimize compilers" to become proficient in JavaScript and compete in that market? Because money is not the only motivator for someone to work. And besides that, from a macro perspective the "free market" is simplistic propaganda. I don't know why people keep bringing it up. Nothing in the real world works that way. Real world is messy, arbitrary, impractical and irrational decisions are made every single day by all human beings. Normal human beings don't sit down and try to "optimize" some cost function in their life/work.
- trentmb 10y agoBecause we're not actually engineers. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe Although there does appear to be a PE exam for software: http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf
- ap22213 10y agoYou say proletariat like it's a bad thing. Of all the social goals that we have (curing cancer, hunger, war, etc.), it amazes me that we haven't added 'work' to that list. Maybe like 5% of people that I know enjoy work more than 50% of the time (and it's probably not 'work' at that point). Work sucks - we should eradicate it and let people spend their short time on Earth doing what they enjoy. Many of our ancestors worked hard so that we could have better. I hope that I can work so that my descendents (and your descendents) won't have to.
- ap22213 10y agoAnd, for the people down-voting, I'd love to know why. Send me a message if you don't want to say publicly. The anthropologist in me genuinely wants to know. I can't understand how anyone would be for work ('they call it work for a reason, right?'). The only reasons I can imagine are 1) inflexible ideology, 2) sadism, or 3) love of power hierarchies.
- morgante 10y agoI enjoy my work. If I go more than a week or two without doing some paid programming, I start to feel listless. I'm lucky enough to get paid well as a freelancer, so I can work as much as I want from wherever I want. Even if I could retire tomorrow, I would still continue to do similar work to what I'm doing now.
- mcbits 10y agoWorking as an employee is not without risk. There is the risk that you'll invest 10% or 50% of your productive lifespan in an employer who squanders it all and leaves you jobless without notice instead of an employer who puts your abilities to good use and recognizes the value that you create. The risk is partially mitigated by receiving a paycheck during those wasted years regardless of the employer's competence.
- clarkmoody 10y ago> invest 10% or 50% of your productive lifespan ... and leaves you jobless If you are not an equity holder, that sentence makes no sense. In a standard employment arrangement, you are selling your time for your salary. The job is not your property; it was created by your employer. Also, you got paid for that 10-50% of your productive lifespan. What else are you expecting?
- mcbits 10y agoAs an employee, your time and skills are your personal capital (your means of production). The way you invest that capital has risk like any other investment. Again, this is partially mitigated by salary. But as an employee, you probably don't expect to earn your negotiated starting salary for the next 40 years. You enter the relationship expecting some form of advancement, bonus, or other rewards in relation to your performance over time. Those expected returns don't manifest when the employer turns out to be a bad employer. Employers are not the only ones taking risks.
- clarkmoody 10y agoReturns to your productive capital being less than expected is quite different than being jobless. Though that is the worst-case outcome. Asking about those advancement opportunities up front is very important during the interview stage. Getting it in your contract is even more important. I agree that the employee takes risks when choosing an employer. I was confused about the scope of upside expectations.
- vacri 10y ago
- antisthenes 10y agoYes, I find it quite ironic that one of the most privileged groups on the planet is suddenly supporting an essentially communist argument of wage theft, as soon as there's even a slight possibility of them being underpaid. Apparently they are also entitled to unprecedented upward mobility. I sincerely doubt many software developers here spend any sleepless nights wondering what it would have been like had they been in another field or profession, which are just as much victims of wage theft as supposedly these engineers are.
- walshemj 10y agoCompared to say being a surgeon? or a lawer some one on here mentioned that a transplant surgeon can make over $15M.
- rpgmaker 10y agoI work in software myself but come on, it's fair to say that being a surgeon is way less trivial and far riskier than being a programmer.
- Frondo 10y agoWhy shouldn't everyone care about getting paid as much as absolutely possible (i.e. the only meaningful definition of "not underpaid")? It's a somewhat free market, shouldn't we all be striving to maximize our take? Or are you suggesting that the central planning committee should be handing out salary guides?