4 ms·

Developers are just another means—we're not wizards. We are a commodity, and if you don't recognize that you're in for a hard midlife crisis. Do you really expe

by duaneb 10y ago

Developers are just another means—we're not wizards. We are a commodity, and if you don't recognize that you're in for a hard midlife crisis. Do you really expect to make any money without taking the risk of deciding what to build? How it's constructed is a (admittedly time-consuming and distracting) detail—only a small aspect of the company's value. Risk and comfort are tradeoffs. If you want to live without risk, you'll have to be satisfied with whatever salary you can negotiate as a commodity.

dudul 10y ago
But a good engineer will have a say in what to build, not only how to build it. Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. IMO, the role of a good engineer is to deeply understand the business/domain to provide good insight in regards to what to build.
- duaneb 10y ago
  > Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. The value of American engineers is their ability to a) speak english well, b) show up at the office, and c) swallow large amounts of debt for college to ease hiring. So I'm not sure how outsourcing plays into this at all. I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer. It actually shocked me you would consider skills involved related at all. I would not expect this from an engineer, and it would make hiring one immensely difficult. That's more the type of skill that leads to starting your own company.
  - cloverich 10y ago
    > I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer. Hmm, I'd heard that hiring product managers that were excellent engineers is very common in the Valley. Not as an exception, but as a "preferred" qualification.
    - duaneb 10y ago
      Hopefully they have some ability to manage a product, too. :) That's a skill that engineering helps inform, but a good engineer does not imply anything like time management, market knowledge, people skills, translating between designers and engineers, etc etc.
  - dudul 10y ago
    "I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer." I have. They don't have to be amazing engineers, but a background with some engineer knowledge is always a big plus.
    - duaneb 10y ago
      Well, sure. But it's not their engineering talent alone that got them the job—hopefully that is not sufficient. The main reason it helps is to understand obstacles, time management, and communication, not because their job is engineering. Regardless, coding is certainly not a directly useful skill.
- stormbrew 10y ago
  I think that everyone believes part of their job should include deciding both what they do and how they do it. I think it's pretty rare for non-managers in any field to have the latter, and extremely rare for any non-managers to have the former. I'm not sure why you believe engineers would be uniquely entitled to make decisions about what they're building. Even in a classical engineering job (building a bridge) they don't get to go "nope, this is a bad idea let's not build it." At best they can say "this is what it'll take to do what you want, is it worth it to you?" Really, deciding what to do is literally the only job top management even has. It's not often shared with the people doing the work.
  - ef4 10y ago
    This is actually why so many organizations that are good at shipping other kinds of products suck at software: the distinction between "what to build" and "how to build it" is very squishy, and on a complex enough project the distinction is nonexistent. A complete specification could just be executed. It is the program.
  - nucleardog 10y ago
    I think the distinction between "what" and "how" is a matter of perspective. The "what" is definitely the domain of management (even if decisions are made with engineering input), but where the "what" ends and becomes "how" is fluid. To use your bridge example, the "what" is "build a bridge" and the "how" is type of bridge, where beams go, etc. That could just as easily be reframed as a more general "what" of "increase traffic capacity from A to B". The "how" might be a bridge, or it might be a new road that routes around the lake, a tunnel, or some other solution. You could also frame it as more specific "what" of "build a suspension bridge" where the "how" no longer includes as many decisions. You'd see the same distinction form between a micromanager and a hands-off manager. The former leaving almost all of the decision making in the "what" and the latter leaving almost all of it in the "how".
NotSammyHagar 10y ago
A startup might make lots of money, but most never succeed. As a regular dev in an established company, I expect to make a lot, my goal is $400k a year in total comp, but I might only break 300k this year. I'm not the VP, I'm not a director. I'm an experienced dev in Seattle, I hope for $200k in stock, 200k in salary + bonus. I have 20 years of experience. As many people have said, you don't have to do your own startup to make a lot of money at the big companies. In Seattle, your average 10 year experience google employee is making $200k salary + bonus, and then at least $100k in stock. Amazon, Msft, Facebook pay comparably.

by duaneb 10y ago

dudul 10y ago

But a good engineer will have a say in what to build, not only how to build it. Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. IMO, the role of a good engineer is to deeply understand the business/domain to provide good insight in regards to what to build.

duaneb 10y ago
> Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. The value of American engineers is their ability to a) speak english well, b) show up at the office, and c) swallow large amounts of debt for college to ease hiring. So I'm not sure how outsourcing plays into this at all. I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer. It actually shocked me you would consider skills involved related at all. I would not expect this from an engineer, and it would make hiring one immensely difficult. That's more the type of skill that leads to starting your own company.
- cloverich 10y ago
  > I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer. Hmm, I'd heard that hiring product managers that were excellent engineers is very common in the Valley. Not as an exception, but as a "preferred" qualification.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    Hopefully they have some ability to manage a product, too. :) That's a skill that engineering helps inform, but a good engineer does not imply anything like time management, market knowledge, people skills, translating between designers and engineers, etc etc.
- dudul 10y ago
  "I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer." I have. They don't have to be amazing engineers, but a background with some engineer knowledge is always a big plus.
  - duaneb 10y ago
    Well, sure. But it's not their engineering talent alone that got them the job—hopefully that is not sufficient. The main reason it helps is to understand obstacles, time management, and communication, not because their job is engineering. Regardless, coding is certainly not a directly useful skill.
stormbrew 10y ago
I think that everyone believes part of their job should include deciding both what they do and how they do it. I think it's pretty rare for non-managers in any field to have the latter, and extremely rare for any non-managers to have the former. I'm not sure why you believe engineers would be uniquely entitled to make decisions about what they're building. Even in a classical engineering job (building a bridge) they don't get to go "nope, this is a bad idea let's not build it." At best they can say "this is what it'll take to do what you want, is it worth it to you?" Really, deciding what to do is literally the only job top management even has. It's not often shared with the people doing the work.
- ef4 10y ago
  This is actually why so many organizations that are good at shipping other kinds of products suck at software: the distinction between "what to build" and "how to build it" is very squishy, and on a complex enough project the distinction is nonexistent. A complete specification could just be executed. It is the program.
- nucleardog 10y ago
  I think the distinction between "what" and "how" is a matter of perspective. The "what" is definitely the domain of management (even if decisions are made with engineering input), but where the "what" ends and becomes "how" is fluid. To use your bridge example, the "what" is "build a bridge" and the "how" is type of bridge, where beams go, etc. That could just as easily be reframed as a more general "what" of "increase traffic capacity from A to B". The "how" might be a bridge, or it might be a new road that routes around the lake, a tunnel, or some other solution. You could also frame it as more specific "what" of "build a suspension bridge" where the "how" no longer includes as many decisions. You'd see the same distinction form between a micromanager and a hands-off manager. The former leaving almost all of the decision making in the "what" and the latter leaving almost all of it in the "how".

NotSammyHagar 10y ago

A startup might make lots of money, but most never succeed. As a regular dev in an established company, I expect to make a lot, my goal is $400k a year in total comp, but I might only break 300k this year. I'm not the VP, I'm not a director. I'm an experienced dev in Seattle, I hope for $200k in stock, 200k in salary + bonus. I have 20 years of experience. As many people have said, you don't have to do your own startup to make a lot of money at the big companies. In Seattle, your average 10 year experience google employee is making $200k salary + bonus, and then at least $100k in stock. Amazon, Msft, Facebook pay comparably.