6 ms·

to all the people who are saying that this is shady or that this resembles fraud: what the hell are you thinking? here is a man who twice bet his personal fortu

by bronz 10y ago

to all the people who are saying that this is shady or that this resembles fraud: what the hell are you thinking? here is a man who twice bet his personal fortune on these companies with no other apparent motive besides making the world a better place. in the case of tesla, elon musk could have lost not only his fortune but everything. if elon musk wanted to make more money he could have done it in other ways with much less risk. founding spacex and tesla only make sense if there was some genuine desire to make the world a better place. a man who put everything on the line for these visions and nearly lost everything would, upon surpassing everyones expecations or even their wildest dreams, suddenly become a shady fraudster and initiate a shady scheme to make a little money? that makes no sense. i get so mad at people who are constantly detracting from tesla or evs in general. it is so ironic that the one company that isnt trying to fuck people over, perhaps the only large company that has nothing but the betterment of the world on the agenda, is constantly berated and dismissed by everyone.

devishard 10y ago
> here is a man who twice bet his personal fortune on these companies with no other apparent motive besides making the world a better place. That has to be the most naive statement I've seen on Hacker News.
- raldi 10y ago
  That insult would be more impactful if backed up with an explanation of why you feel that way. And, once that explanatory paragraph was written, you could remove the insult and just let it stand on its own.
  - forgetsusername 10y ago
    What evidence did the OP provide?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - devishard 10y ago
    Almost anyone can think of other apparent motivations Musk might have without my help and indeed without much thought. It doesn't require explanation. I also think that people should be strongly discouraged from making claims like "here is a man who twice bet his personal fortune on these companies with no other apparent motive besides making the world a better place." That statement actively decreased the quality of discussion. Hopefully bronz will think before posting in the future.
    - kbenson 10y ago
      There are communities where insulting the author of a comment is an acceptable way to make an author think critically about their statement, but this is not one of them. That your comment consisted entirely of an insult and your point needed to be assumed from the subtext points towards it not being very conducive for discussion itself. That you chose to address a comment that you think lowered the quality of discussion with a comment that was even worse in that respect is unfortunate. Your goal was good, your methods were not.
      - devishard 10y ago
        Hacker News, where saying it nicely is valued more than saying anything useful.
        kbenson 10y ago
        Where discussion is prioritized over personal expression. It's not just about what you say, but about how you say it, because it doesn't matter how insightful you are if nobody understands you. It's not about being nice for niceness sake, it's about emphasizing methods of communication that work.
        devishard 10y ago
        That depends very much on what you consider "working". I don't see any value whatsoever in what bronz was communicating, and any discussion that starts from that is going to be equally vapid. That's not "working" to me. It's about what you say AND how you say it.
- whateveracct 10y ago
  never underestimate the cult of elon :^)
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    HackerNews: Build apps, expect billions in valuation. Elon Musk: Pour fortune into building actual things, get shit on by startup culture. Haters gonna hate.
    - salvaclick30 10y ago
      Please brother can someone tell me how to re download my darkcomet because I lost my laptop and I need it back now I have replaced my laptop..
    - devishard 10y ago
      I actually have nothing against Elon Musk. I don't expect anyone to do things completely altruistically. But it's ridiculous to claim that this is just purely altruistic.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Purely altruistic? Probably not. But spending hundreds of millions of dollars on ventures that have an extremely high likely of failure? He's definitely not in it primarily for the cash.
        devishard 10y ago
        On what basis are you claiming that his ventures have an extremely high likelihood of failure? > He's definitely not in it primarily for the cash. I don't see any evidence whatsoever for this assertion.
  - bronz 10y ago
    im not a member. but perhaps he has a cult for a reason.
kbenson 10y ago
While I'm inclined to believe Musk went into these industries (at least initially) because of fairly altruistic desires, it's important to note that this is is a narrative that originates and is promoted by him. That is, it would be foolish to make decisions based on that being true and also reflective of his current motivation without very good current evidence to back it up. Now, I have the luxury of being able to take him at face value because I have no vested interest in any of these companies, as you may not. That said, a fair many people here do in some way or another (as a customer, an investor, or in some related market or field). It behooves them to be very critical.
forgetsusername 10y ago
>i get so mad at people who are constantly detracting from tesla or evs in general. it is so ironic that the one company that isnt trying to fuck people over Maybe you should care less about the fact that people like a consumer product company less than you? And the idea that this is the "one company" not trying to fuck people over is down right ludicrous.
- erikpukinskis 10y ago
  It's not really about how much someone likes a product. It's about the widescale famine, extinction and war on our doorstep and whether we as a planet can do anything to confine warming to a manageable rate. Manageable being the opposite of out-of-control.
dilemma 10y ago
>founding spacex and tesla only make sense if there was some genuine desire to make the world a better place. You're forgetting ego. Really, your last paragraph shows you're a true believer and it's not helping the discussion.
- boznz 10y ago
  I think most of HN are true believers. Seriously in a world run by bean counters and MBA's where the only excitement is Donald Trumps next dick move or how thin the next iPhone is going to be how can you not like what this guys trying to achieve.
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    > Seriously in a world run by bean counters and MBA's where the only excitement is Donald Trumps next dick move or how thin the next iPhone is going to be how can you not like what this guys trying to achieve. I have noticed some interesting parallels between some Donald Trump supporters on a certain subreddit[0] and some HNer regarding Musk (example comments up top): they both assume their hero/idol is working on an inscrutable genius masterplan which us mere mortals will retroactively understand one glorious day in the future. According to the true believers, Trump is allegedly playing 4D political chess and Musk intends to upgrade humanity to a Type II civilization... Both groups could very well be correct, but I'm cynical given the supporting evidence I currently have access to. 1. /r/the_donald - I am a non-American lefty trying to understand wtf is going on. I also like having my assumptions challenged
- bronz 10y ago
  i am passionate about evs. i have been for a long time -- before tesla and the model s. i watched electric vehicles get laughed off the stage every time they made an appearance in the media. i watched the tesla death countdown. i watched the tesla roadster get railed on top gear. at every turn it seemed as though there was a conspiracy to keep evs from ever happening. i watched the new york times drive a model s in circles in a frozen parking lot to try and make it look like the battery ran out. they didnt realize tesla was logging all of that. so yeah, i kind of have a chip on my shoulder. its only because the success that electric vehicles are currently experiencing came after a long, tooth and nail fight led jointly by tesla and electric vehicle enthusiasts and absolutely nobody else. tesla and by extension elon musk deserve huge credit for what they have accomplished because in the end this is a victory for everyone.
woodandsteel 10y ago
To those who are dubious about Musk, I have a question: What do you think is the correct way of going about determining if a person has sincere ideals or is just a con artist?
- rtpg 10y ago
  Ideals become pretty maleable when you're in a situation of crisis (which Musk seems to have been, according to the pundits). Things I do are good + I am in trouble financially -> Conflict of interest doesn't matter, because it's to save Important things. It's possible to have sincere ideals and still make iffy judgement calls. The positioning makes sense, but who here would bet that this would have still happened if both companies were turning a profit?
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    > It's possible to have sincere ideals and still make iffy judgement calls. The positioning makes sense, but who here would bet that this would have still happened if both companies were turning a profit? This is not the first time this decision needed to be made: http://www.theverge.com/2015/5/14/8605597/elon-musk-discusses-spacex-tesla-near-bankruptcy http://www.theverge.com/2015/5/14/8605597/elon-musk-discusse...
  - throwaway1488 10y ago
    >who here would bet that this would have still happened if both companies were turning a profit? Do you even understand what you're saying? Solarcity 'loses' money because they invest all their profits and more into expansion. Same goes for Tesla. You should read the quarterlies and SEC notices yourself.
- everlost 10y ago
  I would say the easiest way to check is if actions match the talk. If ideals are altruistic, then margins and prices should reflect the same. You cannot have 2x margins and claim your goals are idealistic.
  - 10y ago
SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago
I don't get why it has to be one extreme or the other on HN. Reading through these comments Musks's either a fraudster or the second coming of Jesus.

by bronz 10y ago

devishard 10y ago

> here is a man who twice bet his personal fortune on these companies with no other apparent motive besides making the world a better place. That has to be the most naive statement I've seen on Hacker News.

raldi 10y ago
That insult would be more impactful if backed up with an explanation of why you feel that way. And, once that explanatory paragraph was written, you could remove the insult and just let it stand on its own.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  What evidence did the OP provide?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- devishard 10y ago
  Almost anyone can think of other apparent motivations Musk might have without my help and indeed without much thought. It doesn't require explanation. I also think that people should be strongly discouraged from making claims like "here is a man who twice bet his personal fortune on these companies with no other apparent motive besides making the world a better place." That statement actively decreased the quality of discussion. Hopefully bronz will think before posting in the future.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    There are communities where insulting the author of a comment is an acceptable way to make an author think critically about their statement, but this is not one of them. That your comment consisted entirely of an insult and your point needed to be assumed from the subtext points towards it not being very conducive for discussion itself. That you chose to address a comment that you think lowered the quality of discussion with a comment that was even worse in that respect is unfortunate. Your goal was good, your methods were not.
    - devishard 10y ago
      Hacker News, where saying it nicely is valued more than saying anything useful.
      - kbenson 10y ago
        Where discussion is prioritized over personal expression. It's not just about what you say, but about how you say it, because it doesn't matter how insightful you are if nobody understands you. It's not about being nice for niceness sake, it's about emphasizing methods of communication that work.
        devishard 10y ago
        That depends very much on what you consider "working". I don't see any value whatsoever in what bronz was communicating, and any discussion that starts from that is going to be equally vapid. That's not "working" to me. It's about what you say AND how you say it.
whateveracct 10y ago
never underestimate the cult of elon :^)
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  HackerNews: Build apps, expect billions in valuation. Elon Musk: Pour fortune into building actual things, get shit on by startup culture. Haters gonna hate.
  - salvaclick30 10y ago
    Please brother can someone tell me how to re download my darkcomet because I lost my laptop and I need it back now I have replaced my laptop..
  - devishard 10y ago
    I actually have nothing against Elon Musk. I don't expect anyone to do things completely altruistically. But it's ridiculous to claim that this is just purely altruistic.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Purely altruistic? Probably not. But spending hundreds of millions of dollars on ventures that have an extremely high likely of failure? He's definitely not in it primarily for the cash.
      - devishard 10y ago
        On what basis are you claiming that his ventures have an extremely high likelihood of failure? > He's definitely not in it primarily for the cash. I don't see any evidence whatsoever for this assertion.
- bronz 10y ago
  im not a member. but perhaps he has a cult for a reason.

kbenson 10y ago

While I'm inclined to believe Musk went into these industries (at least initially) because of fairly altruistic desires, it's important to note that this is is a narrative that originates and is promoted by him. That is, it would be foolish to make decisions based on that being true and also reflective of his current motivation without very good current evidence to back it up. Now, I have the luxury of being able to take him at face value because I have no vested interest in any of these companies, as you may not. That said, a fair many people here do in some way or another (as a customer, an investor, or in some related market or field). It behooves them to be very critical.

forgetsusername 10y ago

>i get so mad at people who are constantly detracting from tesla or evs in general. it is so ironic that the one company that isnt trying to fuck people over Maybe you should care less about the fact that people like a consumer product company less than you? And the idea that this is the "one company" not trying to fuck people over is down right ludicrous.

erikpukinskis 10y ago
It's not really about how much someone likes a product. It's about the widescale famine, extinction and war on our doorstep and whether we as a planet can do anything to confine warming to a manageable rate. Manageable being the opposite of out-of-control.

dilemma 10y ago

>founding spacex and tesla only make sense if there was some genuine desire to make the world a better place. You're forgetting ego. Really, your last paragraph shows you're a true believer and it's not helping the discussion.

boznz 10y ago
I think most of HN are true believers. Seriously in a world run by bean counters and MBA's where the only excitement is Donald Trumps next dick move or how thin the next iPhone is going to be how can you not like what this guys trying to achieve.
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > Seriously in a world run by bean counters and MBA's where the only excitement is Donald Trumps next dick move or how thin the next iPhone is going to be how can you not like what this guys trying to achieve. I have noticed some interesting parallels between some Donald Trump supporters on a certain subreddit[0] and some HNer regarding Musk (example comments up top): they both assume their hero/idol is working on an inscrutable genius masterplan which us mere mortals will retroactively understand one glorious day in the future. According to the true believers, Trump is allegedly playing 4D political chess and Musk intends to upgrade humanity to a Type II civilization... Both groups could very well be correct, but I'm cynical given the supporting evidence I currently have access to. 1. /r/the_donald - I am a non-American lefty trying to understand wtf is going on. I also like having my assumptions challenged
bronz 10y ago
i am passionate about evs. i have been for a long time -- before tesla and the model s. i watched electric vehicles get laughed off the stage every time they made an appearance in the media. i watched the tesla death countdown. i watched the tesla roadster get railed on top gear. at every turn it seemed as though there was a conspiracy to keep evs from ever happening. i watched the new york times drive a model s in circles in a frozen parking lot to try and make it look like the battery ran out. they didnt realize tesla was logging all of that. so yeah, i kind of have a chip on my shoulder. its only because the success that electric vehicles are currently experiencing came after a long, tooth and nail fight led jointly by tesla and electric vehicle enthusiasts and absolutely nobody else. tesla and by extension elon musk deserve huge credit for what they have accomplished because in the end this is a victory for everyone.

woodandsteel 10y ago

To those who are dubious about Musk, I have a question: What do you think is the correct way of going about determining if a person has sincere ideals or is just a con artist?

rtpg 10y ago
Ideals become pretty maleable when you're in a situation of crisis (which Musk seems to have been, according to the pundits). Things I do are good + I am in trouble financially -> Conflict of interest doesn't matter, because it's to save Important things. It's possible to have sincere ideals and still make iffy judgement calls. The positioning makes sense, but who here would bet that this would have still happened if both companies were turning a profit?
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  > It's possible to have sincere ideals and still make iffy judgement calls. The positioning makes sense, but who here would bet that this would have still happened if both companies were turning a profit? This is not the first time this decision needed to be made: http://www.theverge.com/2015/5/14/8605597/elon-musk-discusses-spacex-tesla-near-bankruptcy http://www.theverge.com/2015/5/14/8605597/elon-musk-discusse...
- throwaway1488 10y ago
  >who here would bet that this would have still happened if both companies were turning a profit? Do you even understand what you're saying? Solarcity 'loses' money because they invest all their profits and more into expansion. Same goes for Tesla. You should read the quarterlies and SEC notices yourself.
everlost 10y ago
I would say the easiest way to check is if actions match the talk. If ideals are altruistic, then margins and prices should reflect the same. You cannot have 2x margins and claim your goals are idealistic.
- 10y ago

SmellyGeekBoy 10y ago

I don't get why it has to be one extreme or the other on HN. Reading through these comments Musks's either a fraudster or the second coming of Jesus.