6 ms·

Closed city

84 points by lelf 10y ago

cpeterso 10y ago
This reminds me of China Miéville's novel The City & The City, ostensibly a police procedural where two cities overlay the same physical space: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- 13of40 10y ago
  I read that several years ago, and my impression was it was inspired by how different subcultures occupy the same space in real life cities, but it's taboo for them to communicate or sometimes even acknowledge each others' presence.
atemerev 10y ago
Getting a visitor's permit is (or maybe was — I don't know about the situation of last 2-3 years) relatively straightforward even for foreign tourists. That's in Russia, I don't know much about China. Having grown up in relatively closed city of Omsk, Russia, I knew (like every other boy of my age) the exact coordinates of probable nuclear strikes in case of war (ICBM silos perimeter, tank production plant officialy known as transport machinery plant, nuclear weapons maintenance plants etc.) All of which were supposedly secret, but everyone knew everything anyway.
- ash 10y ago
  I was born in the city of Severomorsk.¹ Current population 50,000+. I'm living in another city now. And I can't go the place of my birth unless I prepare the papers two weeks before the visit.² Forget about the spontaneous visits to my friends living there. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severomorsk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severomorsk ² My friend helped me with the papers. I don't remember exactly, but simply saying "I want to visit my friends" is not enough. It's more complicated than that.
  - atemerev 10y ago
    Do you still hold the Russian passport? Also, yes, I haven't said it doesn't take time, unfortunately.
nxzero 10y ago
America had secret cities too at one point; from 1942 until 1949, Oak Ridge, a city of 75,000 people did not exist on maps. http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/06/the-secret-city/100326/ http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/06/the-secret-city/100...
- dreamcompiler 10y ago
  Likewise Los Alamos, NM and Richland, WA as the article mentions.
dreamcompiler 10y ago
I'm curious about US cities that are effectively closed today. What happens if you try to drive to Pilcher, OK or Love Canal, NY?
- warkdarrior 10y ago
  Since both cities are highly contaminated with chemicals from mining and from toxic-waste disposal, I'd venture to guess that the result of driving there is that you will die a slow, painful death from poisoning.
  - HelloImDumb 10y ago
    Love Canal is not a city, it's a neighborhood of Niagara Falls, roughly 16 acres of the worst of which is fenced. Since the toxins have been buried probably nothing would happen unless you went digging around the soil and eating with dirty hands; or maybe spent a few years living in a tent above it. Perhaps a more interesting case is Centralia PA.
    - whafro 10y ago
      I visited Centralia several years ago, and it was fascinating. I don't recall pedestrian access being impeded at the time, but there was definitely gas and smoke rising from a few spots around town. I happened to visit on a cloudy morning, and it had an eerie, ethereal feel to it. There were several areas where the road was damaged, and it was clear that it wouldn't be wise to put too much weight over top, but there are still people living in the area.
ukoki 10y ago
"No 404 Factory of China National Nuclear Corp" AKA factory not found.
known 10y ago
45% of USA is uninhabited :)
sandworm101 10y ago
I would add to the list many US "cities". If we define a city as a community large enough to meat the general needs of its inhabitants (health, commerce, work/home etc) then lots of places in the US qualify as closed cities. Most of the large military bases a de facto cities, and they are closed. Louisiana State prison (aka Angola) is a closed city imho. It has a golf course, farms, an air strip and cemetery. My point is that wikipedia gives the impression that such cities are the mark of oppressive or secretive regimes, listing only a handful of formerly-closed cities in the US. And those were all relate in some way to the Manhattan project. But there are plenty of other closed cities in the US of today ... so um well ... read into that what you will.
- kwhitefoot 10y ago
  Surely Louisiana State prison is part of a locally oppressive regime even if the wider society outside is not.
- varjag 10y ago
  People living in closed cities were citizens not penalized in rights. Not so with prisons and labor camps.
  - VLM 10y ago
    Prisons have guards and administrators and support staff who are free to enjoy the private golf courses and libraries and parks and stores. Likewise an army base with a basic training or advanced training school battalion isn't very free for new recruits but the cadre and soldiers unrelated to the basic training battalion may very well outnumber the recruits and live in a reasonably nice private closed city.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > Prisons have guards and administrators and support staff who are free to enjoy the private golf courses and libraries and parks and stores. But don't generally live in the prison. The residents of the prison are not free citizens. > Likewise an army base with a basic training or advanced training school battalion isn't very free for new recruits but the cadre and soldiers unrelated to the basic training battalion may very well outnumber the recruits and live in a reasonably nice private closed city. US military bases are probably better examples or approximations of the idea of a closed city than US prisons.
rplnt 10y ago
I once read a blog about a guy that was hitchhiking in China and ended up in a city that he was escorted out from (first being threatened with jail, deleting photos, etc). He couldn't find it on a map either (but he just knew the main road which he used, not exactly where he left it, so..). Apparently there were lots of kids with badges, many sport venues. His guess was a some sort of talent building city for olympics. edit: Here it is through translate (haven't checked how bad it is) https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hogy.sk%2Fako-som-v-cine-nasiel-co-som-najst-nemal https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%...
xg15 10y ago
Why the strong focus on Russian/Ex-Soviet cities in the article, though? It seems odd that there is a detailed list of present-day closed cities in Russia but only passing mention of other countries.
- cooper12 10y ago
  The most likely explanation is because that's where they were the most prevalent or most well-documented. The lead of the article notes: "Closed cities are a feature of heavily militarized countries and secretive regimes, and many still exist in the successor countries to the Soviet Union." Or it could just be that whoever added the content has Russia-centric knowledge or interests and contributed that. Wikipedia knowingly suffers from systematic bias [0] and many articles will have a tag like this one [1] for being too US-centric. The problem with addressing that is that most editors are American and don't really have access to other language reliable sources. Though in this case the sources are in English so it could just be that English-language sources all focus on that area. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Globalize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Globalize
- Jonnax 10y ago
  I think the article and associated articles just don't haven't had much time invested into developing them. For example, the articles for the regions in China don't mention that they're closed cities. And for the current closed cities in Russia, their articles just say that they're closed in the first sentence and don't reference it again. I think there's a lot of scope to develop the article and associated pages with more information.
superuser2 10y ago
This concept is interesting as a way to secure critical government employees against espionage and extortion. It would seem much more difficult to provide security/surveillance details for critical personnel (to prevent assassination or compromise by foreign agents) and their families (to prevent kidnap/extortion) living in bustling open cities, than to provide housing in secure facilities where such threats cannot even get near them. If I were (say) Iran, I might not want my nuclear scientists living among the masses.

84 points by lelf 10y ago

This reminds me of China Miéville's novel The City & The City, ostensibly a police procedural where two cities overlay the same physical space: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
13of40 10y ago
I read that several years ago, and my impression was it was inspired by how different subcultures occupy the same space in real life cities, but it's taboo for them to communicate or sometimes even acknowledge each others' presence.

atemerev 10y ago

Getting a visitor's permit is (or maybe was — I don't know about the situation of last 2-3 years) relatively straightforward even for foreign tourists. That's in Russia, I don't know much about China. Having grown up in relatively closed city of Omsk, Russia, I knew (like every other boy of my age) the exact coordinates of probable nuclear strikes in case of war (ICBM silos perimeter, tank production plant officialy known as transport machinery plant, nuclear weapons maintenance plants etc.) All of which were supposedly secret, but everyone knew everything anyway.

ash 10y ago
I was born in the city of Severomorsk.¹ Current population 50,000+. I'm living in another city now. And I can't go the place of my birth unless I prepare the papers two weeks before the visit.² Forget about the spontaneous visits to my friends living there. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severomorsk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severomorsk ² My friend helped me with the papers. I don't remember exactly, but simply saying "I want to visit my friends" is not enough. It's more complicated than that.
- atemerev 10y ago
  Do you still hold the Russian passport? Also, yes, I haven't said it doesn't take time, unfortunately.

nxzero 10y ago

America had secret cities too at one point; from 1942 until 1949, Oak Ridge, a city of 75,000 people did not exist on maps. http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/06/the-secret-city/100326/ http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2012/06/the-secret-city/100...

dreamcompiler 10y ago
Likewise Los Alamos, NM and Richland, WA as the article mentions.

dreamcompiler 10y ago

I'm curious about US cities that are effectively closed today. What happens if you try to drive to Pilcher, OK or Love Canal, NY?

warkdarrior 10y ago
Since both cities are highly contaminated with chemicals from mining and from toxic-waste disposal, I'd venture to guess that the result of driving there is that you will die a slow, painful death from poisoning.
- HelloImDumb 10y ago
  Love Canal is not a city, it's a neighborhood of Niagara Falls, roughly 16 acres of the worst of which is fenced. Since the toxins have been buried probably nothing would happen unless you went digging around the soil and eating with dirty hands; or maybe spent a few years living in a tent above it. Perhaps a more interesting case is Centralia PA.
  - whafro 10y ago
    I visited Centralia several years ago, and it was fascinating. I don't recall pedestrian access being impeded at the time, but there was definitely gas and smoke rising from a few spots around town. I happened to visit on a cloudy morning, and it had an eerie, ethereal feel to it. There were several areas where the road was damaged, and it was clear that it wouldn't be wise to put too much weight over top, but there are still people living in the area.

ukoki 10y ago

"No 404 Factory of China National Nuclear Corp" AKA factory not found.

known 10y ago

45% of USA is uninhabited :)

sandworm101 10y ago

I would add to the list many US "cities". If we define a city as a community large enough to meat the general needs of its inhabitants (health, commerce, work/home etc) then lots of places in the US qualify as closed cities. Most of the large military bases a de facto cities, and they are closed. Louisiana State prison (aka Angola) is a closed city imho. It has a golf course, farms, an air strip and cemetery. My point is that wikipedia gives the impression that such cities are the mark of oppressive or secretive regimes, listing only a handful of formerly-closed cities in the US. And those were all relate in some way to the Manhattan project. But there are plenty of other closed cities in the US of today ... so um well ... read into that what you will.

kwhitefoot 10y ago
Surely Louisiana State prison is part of a locally oppressive regime even if the wider society outside is not.
varjag 10y ago
People living in closed cities were citizens not penalized in rights. Not so with prisons and labor camps.
- VLM 10y ago
  Prisons have guards and administrators and support staff who are free to enjoy the private golf courses and libraries and parks and stores. Likewise an army base with a basic training or advanced training school battalion isn't very free for new recruits but the cadre and soldiers unrelated to the basic training battalion may very well outnumber the recruits and live in a reasonably nice private closed city.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Prisons have guards and administrators and support staff who are free to enjoy the private golf courses and libraries and parks and stores. But don't generally live in the prison. The residents of the prison are not free citizens. > Likewise an army base with a basic training or advanced training school battalion isn't very free for new recruits but the cadre and soldiers unrelated to the basic training battalion may very well outnumber the recruits and live in a reasonably nice private closed city. US military bases are probably better examples or approximations of the idea of a closed city than US prisons.

rplnt 10y ago

I once read a blog about a guy that was hitchhiking in China and ended up in a city that he was escorted out from (first being threatened with jail, deleting photos, etc). He couldn't find it on a map either (but he just knew the main road which he used, not exactly where he left it, so..). Apparently there were lots of kids with badges, many sport venues. His guess was a some sort of talent building city for olympics. edit: Here it is through translate (haven't checked how bad it is) https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hogy.sk%2Fako-som-v-cine-nasiel-co-som-najst-nemal https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%...

xg15 10y ago

Why the strong focus on Russian/Ex-Soviet cities in the article, though? It seems odd that there is a detailed list of present-day closed cities in Russia but only passing mention of other countries.

cooper12 10y ago
The most likely explanation is because that's where they were the most prevalent or most well-documented. The lead of the article notes: "Closed cities are a feature of heavily militarized countries and secretive regimes, and many still exist in the successor countries to the Soviet Union." Or it could just be that whoever added the content has Russia-centric knowledge or interests and contributed that. Wikipedia knowingly suffers from systematic bias [0] and many articles will have a tag like this one [1] for being too US-centric. The problem with addressing that is that most editors are American and don't really have access to other language reliable sources. Though in this case the sources are in English so it could just be that English-language sources all focus on that area. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Globalize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Globalize
Jonnax 10y ago
I think the article and associated articles just don't haven't had much time invested into developing them. For example, the articles for the regions in China don't mention that they're closed cities. And for the current closed cities in Russia, their articles just say that they're closed in the first sentence and don't reference it again. I think there's a lot of scope to develop the article and associated pages with more information.

superuser2 10y ago

This concept is interesting as a way to secure critical government employees against espionage and extortion. It would seem much more difficult to provide security/surveillance details for critical personnel (to prevent assassination or compromise by foreign agents) and their families (to prevent kidnap/extortion) living in bustling open cities, than to provide housing in secure facilities where such threats cannot even get near them. If I were (say) Iran, I might not want my nuclear scientists living among the masses.