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Really, the vast majority of what I use my computer for, Linux is a better OS than Windows ever was. But even on Mac (which I never use) I'm generally OK as lon

Really, the vast majority of what I use my computer for, Linux is a better OS than Windows ever was. But even on Mac (which I never use) I'm generally OK as long as I can install a decent web browser. For the average computer user, Windows is not really necessary, and equivalent software exists on other platforms. For professional users this probably isn't true, and it'll depend on what their businesses choose to deploy, and how cross-platform that software is. I currently work for a datacenter that officially support Windows and Mac, and allows employees to run Linux unofficially and self-support. While the community that arose from this is quite frankly awesome, it's been a troubling journey, and I still have some convenience features that I learned to live without. Windows, for all its faults, has tighter integration with all of our company's tools, and living without the un-managed company images and easy updates is unproductive for most of our staff that aren't linux/mac enthusiasts. The choice is there though, and I'm grateful for that.

cm2187 10y ago
The problem with linux is the zero discoverability. I am sure it is extremely powerful to an existing expert who knows all the syntax of the command lines by heart and understands the architecture of the system, but the RTFM approach is not appealing to everyone. Particularly to enthusiasts like me who like to do advanced stuff occasionally, ie not frequently enough that it makes sense to learn by heart all sort of commands, and where the cost of having to understand all sort of concepts and acronyms is prohibitive if I just want to do something once. Windows for that is very powerful, the UI goes quite a long way.
- brokenmachine 10y ago
  > Windows for that is very powerful, the UI goes quite a long way. Fine for doing the basics (slowly)... Until you need to do something even semi-powerful, then you will curse the lack of a good CLI. I find in Windows that because most programs don't actually support a CLI at all, it's actually impossible to do lots of stuff that I'd like to do. Plus I get a nice feeling when I can put together an elegant little sed (or whatever) command to do exactly what I need to do in seconds. The learning curve is high but the satisfaction is great, same as learning programming. I can see how having to google for commands is a bridge too far for some people, but I get much more annoyed having to do extra mouse clicks everywhere than having to google a command that I can hopefully find a use for later as well. Source: linux user who is forced to use windows all day at work.
  - cm2187 10y ago
    > Fine for doing the basics (slowly) I fundamentally disagree with that. If you are trying to set up a single Virtual Machine having never done it, you will go way faster with a UI than if you need to figure out the commands and how the whole thing works. If you need to set up 100 VMs then yes, CLI becomes the fast (and only practical) way. > I find in Windows that because most programs don't actually support a CLI at all Windows has CLI support for pretty much all advanced features, although admittedly scattered across various technologies. Where it lacks CLI is for user features, like customizing the UI of the desktop, switching off sounds, etc. > The learning curve is high but the satisfaction is great, same as learning programming. A steep learning curve is not a positive thing. Having a powerful IDE goes a long way to make a programming language self-discoverable and flattening the learning curve (Visual Studio for C# and VB is for that absolutely priceless). I wish CLIs had powerful autocomplete features that were aware of the state of the system (like you type "Stop-VM " and the autocomplete would suggest the names of the VMs available in that context). The most advanced CLI in windows (powershell) is miles away from being that good. And as far as I know there is none of that in Linux. And keep in mind the problem is not just having to "google the syntax". You have ten different distributions of linux, 10 different tools to do the same thing, all have different syntax, acronyms, concepts and commands that will break the system if used against the wrong version. Since there is no easy way to visualise the state of the system, it is very hard for a non experienced user to progress in linux, and trial and error is time consuming and not fun. I am not a fan of Windows, and in fact I am seriously considering switching to Linux rather than having to use Windows 10. But all these things are holding me back. I am not an IT professional and only have a limited amount of time I can spend re-learning the basics (firewalls, setting up websites, virtual machines, various jobs, etc). What I wish existed is an environment that was maintaining a perfect symmetry between UI and CLI, where everything can be done with a UI, but where the OS gives you the CLI equivalent of what you are doing with a UI (a bit like Excel's record macros).
    - brokenmachine 10y ago
      Excellent points. Just a comment: you can use a GUI in linux just like in Windows, it's just that mostly everything is CLI-aware, or has a CLI command as well, which is nice when you want to script something. It would really be nice to see smarter autocomplete on the CLI, hopefully someone is working on it. I can see why it might be complicated to implement though as you'd need better integration with the terminal for autosuggest popups, etc, and this might not work well over ssh. Also a better way to find commands that you don't know about yet would be nice, maybe searching installed programs by feature? Like "findcommand image" would give you a list of programs that can modify images, and what they can do to them?

cm2187 10y ago

The problem with linux is the zero discoverability. I am sure it is extremely powerful to an existing expert who knows all the syntax of the command lines by heart and understands the architecture of the system, but the RTFM approach is not appealing to everyone. Particularly to enthusiasts like me who like to do advanced stuff occasionally, ie not frequently enough that it makes sense to learn by heart all sort of commands, and where the cost of having to understand all sort of concepts and acronyms is prohibitive if I just want to do something once. Windows for that is very powerful, the UI goes quite a long way.

brokenmachine 10y ago
> Windows for that is very powerful, the UI goes quite a long way. Fine for doing the basics (slowly)... Until you need to do something even semi-powerful, then you will curse the lack of a good CLI. I find in Windows that because most programs don't actually support a CLI at all, it's actually impossible to do lots of stuff that I'd like to do. Plus I get a nice feeling when I can put together an elegant little sed (or whatever) command to do exactly what I need to do in seconds. The learning curve is high but the satisfaction is great, same as learning programming. I can see how having to google for commands is a bridge too far for some people, but I get much more annoyed having to do extra mouse clicks everywhere than having to google a command that I can hopefully find a use for later as well. Source: linux user who is forced to use windows all day at work.
- cm2187 10y ago
  > Fine for doing the basics (slowly) I fundamentally disagree with that. If you are trying to set up a single Virtual Machine having never done it, you will go way faster with a UI than if you need to figure out the commands and how the whole thing works. If you need to set up 100 VMs then yes, CLI becomes the fast (and only practical) way. > I find in Windows that because most programs don't actually support a CLI at all Windows has CLI support for pretty much all advanced features, although admittedly scattered across various technologies. Where it lacks CLI is for user features, like customizing the UI of the desktop, switching off sounds, etc. > The learning curve is high but the satisfaction is great, same as learning programming. A steep learning curve is not a positive thing. Having a powerful IDE goes a long way to make a programming language self-discoverable and flattening the learning curve (Visual Studio for C# and VB is for that absolutely priceless). I wish CLIs had powerful autocomplete features that were aware of the state of the system (like you type "Stop-VM " and the autocomplete would suggest the names of the VMs available in that context). The most advanced CLI in windows (powershell) is miles away from being that good. And as far as I know there is none of that in Linux. And keep in mind the problem is not just having to "google the syntax". You have ten different distributions of linux, 10 different tools to do the same thing, all have different syntax, acronyms, concepts and commands that will break the system if used against the wrong version. Since there is no easy way to visualise the state of the system, it is very hard for a non experienced user to progress in linux, and trial and error is time consuming and not fun. I am not a fan of Windows, and in fact I am seriously considering switching to Linux rather than having to use Windows 10. But all these things are holding me back. I am not an IT professional and only have a limited amount of time I can spend re-learning the basics (firewalls, setting up websites, virtual machines, various jobs, etc). What I wish existed is an environment that was maintaining a perfect symmetry between UI and CLI, where everything can be done with a UI, but where the OS gives you the CLI equivalent of what you are doing with a UI (a bit like Excel's record macros).
  - brokenmachine 10y ago
    Excellent points. Just a comment: you can use a GUI in linux just like in Windows, it's just that mostly everything is CLI-aware, or has a CLI command as well, which is nice when you want to script something. It would really be nice to see smarter autocomplete on the CLI, hopefully someone is working on it. I can see why it might be complicated to implement though as you'd need better integration with the terminal for autosuggest popups, etc, and this might not work well over ssh. Also a better way to find commands that you don't know about yet would be nice, maybe searching installed programs by feature? Like "findcommand image" would give you a list of programs that can modify images, and what they can do to them?