5 ms·

Suppose Microsoft wanted to analyze some pretty interesting parameters of typing - - frequency of different keystrokes - frequency of keystrokes as a function

by pryce 10y ago

Suppose Microsoft wanted to analyze some pretty interesting parameters of typing - - frequency of different keystrokes - frequency of keystrokes as a function of the preceeding 1, 2 or 3 keystrokes - mean delay between any set of keystroke pairs - standard deviation of delay between any set of keystroke pairs Would you be able to design a system to collect this information that would not allow reproduction of any particular sentence typed by a user? Would you be able to design a system that collects this information locally, creates the probability matrixes and sends them to Microsoft without sending the keystrokes themselves? The proposed system above is almost trival to build, and yields significant and useful information that Microsoft would be interested in collecting. I am not an expert in this area, nor am I clear that the above is what Microsoft is doing; but it is what I would imagine they want built, and it seems to be a pretty legitimate way to collect information without exposing the user to an actual keylogger and avoids most of the security issues that such a thing entails.

RaleyField 10y ago
We don't know how it works. Why wouldn't Microsoft explain exactly what is sent and make it inspectable. > frequency of keystrokes as a function of the preceeding 1, 2 or 3 keystrokes Sequence that's unusual in a language and has reported frequency that's above what you'd expect from errors will probably be part of recurrently entered password. Depending on how stupidly the telemetry is done this could be leaking significant amounts of data for certain users. Did random poorly informed user agree to this? Probably not.
- scholia 10y ago
  > Why wouldn't Microsoft explain exactly what is sent and make it inspectable. I agree with you: I think it should. I also think we should get the same info for Android and iOS as well, but we don't. Further, what about the massive amount of telemetry built into online services such as Gmail and Facebook? Again, there is only silence.... By the way, I think that the typing stuff is only relevant to on-screen keyboards, where Microsoft does a huge amount of tricky stuff to make text entry more accurate. [0] Windows 10 obviously has a built-in touch keyboard.... [0] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2012/12/06/the-secrets-of-the-windows-phone-8-keyboard/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2012/12/06/the-s... Although that's about Windows Phone, Windows 10 is a mobile operating system designed to merge the PC, phone and Xbox platforms.
  - RaleyField 10y ago
    > I also think we should get the same info for Android and iOS as well Don't derail. What's going on there is travesty as well, doesn't mean that Microsoft should get a license to break established practice on PC compatibles if Apple and Google decided to take a dump on phones. > Further, what about the massive amount of telemetry built into online services such as Gmail and Facebook? They are services, they can't not touch information, when you use these services it's implied that data is processed by them (unless there's some very fancy client side encryption that almost nobody use) and you implicitly agree to it. > I think that the typing stuff is only More interesting to wider audiences would be what you can prove. Why wouldn't Microsoft be more specific, why wouldn't they publish exactly how everything is processed if everything was really beyond reproach as I believe you suspect.
    - scholia 10y ago
      It's not a derail. I've already pointed out that Windows 10 is a converged mobile operating system, and some of its features come directly from Windows Phone (Cortana, Notifications etc). It has a lot of characteristics in common with iOS and Android, and together they illustrate a common problem. Nobody is going to turn the clock back for you. If you don't want a cloud-supported mobile operating system delivered as a service and supported by an app store, then you should stop using Windows 10. Your choice. Nobody will mind. Or you can use Windows until 2020, but remember, that now has telemetry as well.....
      - RaleyField 10y ago
        > cloud-supported Is a nice word for invasive to poorly informed people. Just because it's trendy (or "modern") doesn't mean that it isn't ostensibly bad. > Your choice. It's my choice and Microsoft has every right to crap on their users (if they obtain informed consent, which is again very much arguable). I'll have to sell relatives on switching to Linux and I'd prefer if I didn't have to do that. Lastly, that's beyond just my choice, Microsoft is setting dangerous precedents on x86 platform.

by pryce 10y ago

RaleyField 10y ago

We don't know how it works. Why wouldn't Microsoft explain exactly what is sent and make it inspectable. > frequency of keystrokes as a function of the preceeding 1, 2 or 3 keystrokes Sequence that's unusual in a language and has reported frequency that's above what you'd expect from errors will probably be part of recurrently entered password. Depending on how stupidly the telemetry is done this could be leaking significant amounts of data for certain users. Did random poorly informed user agree to this? Probably not.

scholia 10y ago
> Why wouldn't Microsoft explain exactly what is sent and make it inspectable. I agree with you: I think it should. I also think we should get the same info for Android and iOS as well, but we don't. Further, what about the massive amount of telemetry built into online services such as Gmail and Facebook? Again, there is only silence.... By the way, I think that the typing stuff is only relevant to on-screen keyboards, where Microsoft does a huge amount of tricky stuff to make text entry more accurate. [0] Windows 10 obviously has a built-in touch keyboard.... [0] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2012/12/06/the-secrets-of-the-windows-phone-8-keyboard/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2012/12/06/the-s... Although that's about Windows Phone, Windows 10 is a mobile operating system designed to merge the PC, phone and Xbox platforms.
- RaleyField 10y ago
  > I also think we should get the same info for Android and iOS as well Don't derail. What's going on there is travesty as well, doesn't mean that Microsoft should get a license to break established practice on PC compatibles if Apple and Google decided to take a dump on phones. > Further, what about the massive amount of telemetry built into online services such as Gmail and Facebook? They are services, they can't not touch information, when you use these services it's implied that data is processed by them (unless there's some very fancy client side encryption that almost nobody use) and you implicitly agree to it. > I think that the typing stuff is only More interesting to wider audiences would be what you can prove. Why wouldn't Microsoft be more specific, why wouldn't they publish exactly how everything is processed if everything was really beyond reproach as I believe you suspect.
  - scholia 10y ago
    It's not a derail. I've already pointed out that Windows 10 is a converged mobile operating system, and some of its features come directly from Windows Phone (Cortana, Notifications etc). It has a lot of characteristics in common with iOS and Android, and together they illustrate a common problem. Nobody is going to turn the clock back for you. If you don't want a cloud-supported mobile operating system delivered as a service and supported by an app store, then you should stop using Windows 10. Your choice. Nobody will mind. Or you can use Windows until 2020, but remember, that now has telemetry as well.....
    - RaleyField 10y ago
      > cloud-supported Is a nice word for invasive to poorly informed people. Just because it's trendy (or "modern") doesn't mean that it isn't ostensibly bad. > Your choice. It's my choice and Microsoft has every right to crap on their users (if they obtain informed consent, which is again very much arguable). I'll have to sell relatives on switching to Linux and I'd prefer if I didn't have to do that. Lastly, that's beyond just my choice, Microsoft is setting dangerous precedents on x86 platform.