5 ms·

I wonder if the "game" operates somewhat differently for junior people, versus developers with 10 to 15+ years experience? When I was fresh out of school, at t

I wonder if the "game" operates somewhat differently for junior people, versus developers with 10 to 15+ years experience? When I was fresh out of school, at the tail end of the dot-com boom, negotiation seemed very much central. Employers (and the third-party recruiters working for them) always wanted me to throw out the first number, or wanted to know what I was making at my last job. Then once I was at the new company for awhile, people would gossip... and I'd always discover that I'd low-balled myself. So I would leave, using the apparent market rate as my baseline in the next search. And I simply stopped disclosing what I was making at the previous job. I learned that the difference between a $70k candidate and a $90k candidate is basically just that the latter declares himself to be a $90k candidate. However, once I crossed over the $120k line (at least in my local market) it seemed that things plateaued and changed a bit. It's not as easy to just "declare" that you're a $180k candidate rather than a $140k candidate. At that level, you often start to find that you're interviewing for managerial positions rather an individual contributor technical role. At this stage of my career, I pretty much tell the recruiter my target (which happens to be about 5-10% more than my current salary), and then I'm not even wasting my time interviewing with companies that won't go that high. Ten or fifteen years ago, I was apparently selling myself short. Today, I don't talk about salary IRL, because I'm making significantly higher than what I hear through gossip or see on Glassdoor. Is this common for other experienced devs out there? Or am I selling myself short, and probably should be making $750k for a non-managerial job outside of the Bay Area by now? (haha)

geocar 10y ago
This is common for some developers, but a lot of people view themselves as an "experienced" developer who aren't making this much money: They should read your post carefully and appreciate the fact that either they aren't as experienced as they think they are, or they are selling themselves short. Or perhaps they want to use the term "experienced" to refer to someone less experience. Whatever. That said, if you want to be making $750k programming outside the bay area, it's possible, but the recruiters on cybercoders and linkedin aren't going to help you get these jobs...
- dexwiz 10y ago
  If you are making $750k anywhere you aren't going through common channels. You are working with headhunters that have a contract to specifically fill that role.
  - roel_v 10y ago
    I don't make anywhere near that, but yes of course, it's much better to be asked specifically for niche expertise than having to compete with everybody who can use Chrome to look up job sites over generic 'programmer' jobs. There are several strategies to get high-paying jobs, and 'networking hard to get an in that is not public' is an underappreciated one. But just because that process is by its nature not public, doesn't make it not common.
- rublev 10y ago
  >That said, if you want to be making $750k programming outside the bay area, it's possible, but the recruiters on cybercoders and linkedin aren't going to help you get these jobs... 750k? Am I reading this right? What planet am I on? What kinds of positions are these?
  - geocar 10y ago
    They're positions for very experienced programmers. The job titles vary greatly, but do include "software engineer". They will not only have a high programming competency, they will also have a fluency in the commercial domain: They will know the difference between what the boss wants, and what the boss asks for. NB It is their problem, not their bosses'. They often possess niche and unique experiences. They can network and know how to sell the link between their skills and direct company value. They may also be recognisable figures. Most of the people I know who make this kind of money do not get int a room with puzzles or "well defined product specs" slipped under the door to solve in, having "however long it takes" to get it done. They don't sit at a bug tracker and tick things off. They work for that money. Yes, they program. Is this the kind of programmer you want to be?
    - 10y ago
IncRnd 10y ago
If you are an individual contributor at the high end of the scale, then your experience is not out of line. Even though entry level positions are more commodity driven - there are many people that can fit the same role - there is still more negotiating room. Maybe more salary can be freed up since the range is lower anyway. Another important point, is that companies will often allocate for a senior position in order to catch the candidate they want or settle for the best they can get. If you are senior, make that clear.
agentgt 10y ago
IMO The game does operate differently for experienced developers. I'm not a negotiation expert either (even though ironically I am a founder of a recruiting software company) but I would say there is $100k line and a $255k line. Once you break $100k (ie experienced) then it becomes a challenge to break $255k. This of course just anecdotal and conversations I have had with others. Back when I was passively looking I too would just state the ole "don't won't to hear it unless it is above a certain amount" (and I too am +15 years developer). I would often state outrageous numbers like $250k (sadly that is no longer outrageous to me but it once was) and you would think that would scare off most but many would want to continue the conversation back and forth regardless if the company could pay or not (at times this was annoying).
- mailshanx 10y ago
  Can you talk a bit more about the 255k line? Besides senior engineers at the Big-5 (AppAmaGooBookSoft), what are the profiles of people at or close to the 255 line? Also, what happens once you cross the 255 line - do you hit another glass wall?
  - agentgt 10y ago
    If you are not working at the big boys the secret to approaching $255k is ownership and bonuses (either through MBO and/or dividends). So I suppose it is not really raising your base salary. BTW it is probably not $255 anymore but I believe it (the line) is roughly caused by taxes and the average maximum pay for corporations. The average CEO typically only has a salary of or below ~$255K [1] (notice I said salary and not bonuses.). Consequently it is hard to rationalize paying another employee more than the CEO hence the line. To get in that position of asking for bonuses requires some serious leverage and internal knowledge of the company along with powerful negotiation skills. I somewhat got out of that headache by starting my own company (albeit it is always there directly/indirectly... selling yourself) so I can't give too much advice more than the article does already. I'm not sure what the wall is after $255k as it may just be an nice exponential curve (and again this is just anecdotal). [1]: http://chiefexecutive.net/how-much-does-the-average-ceo-really-earn/ http://chiefexecutive.net/how-much-does-the-average-ceo-real...
potatolicious 10y ago
This is in line with my experience (~7 years in industry). Earlier in my career (who am I kidding, 7 years isn't a long time) I'd find myself in a situation where I was consistently lowballing myself (i.e., stating a number and having it automatically agreed to, oops). I soon learned to state the nuttiest, most absurd number I could think of (and then still have people say yes, damn). Now I find it challenging to find companies willing to pay my current comp. I've largely stopped interviewing at startups completely because the comp is always disappointing, even assuming wildly optimistic things about equity outcomes. It seems like my path forward now is either into the merry-go-round of AppGooFaceSoft, which are the only companies playing in my comp range, or taking a severe pay cut to work at a startup. > " you often start to find that you're interviewing for managerial positions rather an individual contributor technical role" My impression has been that the vast majority of the industry tops out engineers fairly quickly on the compensation scale, and the only way to keep going is to move into management. The only places where this doesn't seem to be true are the BigTechCos, where ICs can go pretty darned high.
SippinLean 10y ago
> And I simply stopped disclosing what I was making at the previous job. What's a good way of phrasing this to come off as non-combative? I always feel awkward saying something like "I'm not comfortable telling you that information".
- Mekkanox 10y ago
  It's not awkward, and it's totally your prerogative for telling a recruiter for that. If they say "well I won't work with you if you won't disclose that info", then I'd say "thanks for your time, good luck in your search." Nowadays there's always a dozen other recruiters who'd be willing to have a phone call with a developer who's actively looking. Obviously, YMMV. As a rule, I don't tell third-parties (recruiters, etc) my current or former compensation. I ask what range the company is aiming for, and whether I'm interested or not. I think compensation is something to be discussed only between the candidate and the company. Anecdotal story: I once was lowballed without my knowledge going into an interview set up by a third-party recruiter, contracted out by the company. They were very excited to get me in - turns out the recruiter gave the company a number that was 25% less my current salary. The company wouldn't be able to meet anywhere near my actual current salary, but the recruiter wanted to get a butt in the seat by any means. From now on, I keep that info private until I choose to disclose it.
- daveroberts 10y ago
  One method: My employer has asked me to keep some information confidential, including its employee compensation. I'm sure that you expect your employees to keep a certain level of confidentiality about information as well, including compensation.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  You can just say it was a competitive market rate. If they pry further after you made it obvious you didn't want to answer with a specific, they're now the combative one, and it's easier to say "I'm really more focused on the compensation for this new position, as long as you're offering a competitive market rate then it's not going to be a problem". If they really need a number after that you can just say it isn't something you share to other employers out of respect to your current employer.

geocar 10y ago

This is common for some developers, but a lot of people view themselves as an "experienced" developer who aren't making this much money: They should read your post carefully and appreciate the fact that either they aren't as experienced as they think they are, or they are selling themselves short. Or perhaps they want to use the term "experienced" to refer to someone less experience. Whatever. That said, if you want to be making $750k programming outside the bay area, it's possible, but the recruiters on cybercoders and linkedin aren't going to help you get these jobs...

dexwiz 10y ago
If you are making $750k anywhere you aren't going through common channels. You are working with headhunters that have a contract to specifically fill that role.
- roel_v 10y ago
  I don't make anywhere near that, but yes of course, it's much better to be asked specifically for niche expertise than having to compete with everybody who can use Chrome to look up job sites over generic 'programmer' jobs. There are several strategies to get high-paying jobs, and 'networking hard to get an in that is not public' is an underappreciated one. But just because that process is by its nature not public, doesn't make it not common.
rublev 10y ago
>That said, if you want to be making $750k programming outside the bay area, it's possible, but the recruiters on cybercoders and linkedin aren't going to help you get these jobs... 750k? Am I reading this right? What planet am I on? What kinds of positions are these?
- geocar 10y ago
  They're positions for very experienced programmers. The job titles vary greatly, but do include "software engineer". They will not only have a high programming competency, they will also have a fluency in the commercial domain: They will know the difference between what the boss wants, and what the boss asks for. NB It is their problem, not their bosses'. They often possess niche and unique experiences. They can network and know how to sell the link between their skills and direct company value. They may also be recognisable figures. Most of the people I know who make this kind of money do not get int a room with puzzles or "well defined product specs" slipped under the door to solve in, having "however long it takes" to get it done. They don't sit at a bug tracker and tick things off. They work for that money. Yes, they program. Is this the kind of programmer you want to be?
  - 10y ago

IncRnd 10y ago

If you are an individual contributor at the high end of the scale, then your experience is not out of line. Even though entry level positions are more commodity driven - there are many people that can fit the same role - there is still more negotiating room. Maybe more salary can be freed up since the range is lower anyway. Another important point, is that companies will often allocate for a senior position in order to catch the candidate they want or settle for the best they can get. If you are senior, make that clear.

agentgt 10y ago

IMO The game does operate differently for experienced developers. I'm not a negotiation expert either (even though ironically I am a founder of a recruiting software company) but I would say there is $100k line and a $255k line. Once you break $100k (ie experienced) then it becomes a challenge to break $255k. This of course just anecdotal and conversations I have had with others. Back when I was passively looking I too would just state the ole "don't won't to hear it unless it is above a certain amount" (and I too am +15 years developer). I would often state outrageous numbers like $250k (sadly that is no longer outrageous to me but it once was) and you would think that would scare off most but many would want to continue the conversation back and forth regardless if the company could pay or not (at times this was annoying).

mailshanx 10y ago
Can you talk a bit more about the 255k line? Besides senior engineers at the Big-5 (AppAmaGooBookSoft), what are the profiles of people at or close to the 255 line? Also, what happens once you cross the 255 line - do you hit another glass wall?
- agentgt 10y ago
  If you are not working at the big boys the secret to approaching $255k is ownership and bonuses (either through MBO and/or dividends). So I suppose it is not really raising your base salary. BTW it is probably not $255 anymore but I believe it (the line) is roughly caused by taxes and the average maximum pay for corporations. The average CEO typically only has a salary of or below ~$255K [1] (notice I said salary and not bonuses.). Consequently it is hard to rationalize paying another employee more than the CEO hence the line. To get in that position of asking for bonuses requires some serious leverage and internal knowledge of the company along with powerful negotiation skills. I somewhat got out of that headache by starting my own company (albeit it is always there directly/indirectly... selling yourself) so I can't give too much advice more than the article does already. I'm not sure what the wall is after $255k as it may just be an nice exponential curve (and again this is just anecdotal). [1]: http://chiefexecutive.net/how-much-does-the-average-ceo-really-earn/ http://chiefexecutive.net/how-much-does-the-average-ceo-real...

potatolicious 10y ago

This is in line with my experience (~7 years in industry). Earlier in my career (who am I kidding, 7 years isn't a long time) I'd find myself in a situation where I was consistently lowballing myself (i.e., stating a number and having it automatically agreed to, oops). I soon learned to state the nuttiest, most absurd number I could think of (and then still have people say yes, damn). Now I find it challenging to find companies willing to pay my current comp. I've largely stopped interviewing at startups completely because the comp is always disappointing, even assuming wildly optimistic things about equity outcomes. It seems like my path forward now is either into the merry-go-round of AppGooFaceSoft, which are the only companies playing in my comp range, or taking a severe pay cut to work at a startup. > " you often start to find that you're interviewing for managerial positions rather an individual contributor technical role" My impression has been that the vast majority of the industry tops out engineers fairly quickly on the compensation scale, and the only way to keep going is to move into management. The only places where this doesn't seem to be true are the BigTechCos, where ICs can go pretty darned high.

SippinLean 10y ago

> And I simply stopped disclosing what I was making at the previous job. What's a good way of phrasing this to come off as non-combative? I always feel awkward saying something like "I'm not comfortable telling you that information".

Mekkanox 10y ago
It's not awkward, and it's totally your prerogative for telling a recruiter for that. If they say "well I won't work with you if you won't disclose that info", then I'd say "thanks for your time, good luck in your search." Nowadays there's always a dozen other recruiters who'd be willing to have a phone call with a developer who's actively looking. Obviously, YMMV. As a rule, I don't tell third-parties (recruiters, etc) my current or former compensation. I ask what range the company is aiming for, and whether I'm interested or not. I think compensation is something to be discussed only between the candidate and the company. Anecdotal story: I once was lowballed without my knowledge going into an interview set up by a third-party recruiter, contracted out by the company. They were very excited to get me in - turns out the recruiter gave the company a number that was 25% less my current salary. The company wouldn't be able to meet anywhere near my actual current salary, but the recruiter wanted to get a butt in the seat by any means. From now on, I keep that info private until I choose to disclose it.
daveroberts 10y ago
One method: My employer has asked me to keep some information confidential, including its employee compensation. I'm sure that you expect your employees to keep a certain level of confidentiality about information as well, including compensation.
whamlastxmas 10y ago
You can just say it was a competitive market rate. If they pry further after you made it obvious you didn't want to answer with a specific, they're now the combative one, and it's easier to say "I'm really more focused on the compensation for this new position, as long as you're offering a competitive market rate then it's not going to be a problem". If they really need a number after that you can just say it isn't something you share to other employers out of respect to your current employer.