4 ms·

American cities need to learn a thing or two from Tokyo. 10 inches of rain in one day is a common occurrence in Japan during the summer, so they are prepared to

by kijin 10y ago

American cities need to learn a thing or two from Tokyo. 10 inches of rain in one day is a common occurrence in Japan during the summer, so they are prepared to handle it.

zzalpha 10y ago
You've just described a necessary consequence of uncontrolled climate change: having to change the way we live to cope with the effects. And it's incredibly expensive. And also a luxury of the relative rich west.
maxerickson 10y ago
Yeah, that's sort of the point. This kind of weather hasn't been happening, so infrastructure hasn't been built to handle it. For infrastructure that will last 50 years, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to build it to withstand events that happen roughly every 500 years. Of course things like nuclear plants and dams have to be built to withstand the most severe events, but not every culvert on a country road.
- ourmandave 10y ago
  And why Atlanta shuts down when there's an 1/4" of snow.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    Even in northern states they don't bother having the equipment needed to rapidly respond to a big storm. Detroit gets massively shut down every year or two, and lots of counties in Michigan take a couple of days to really clear most roads from a big storm.
  - dpeck 10y ago
    In fairness it was the ice, which is a whole different beast.
- tedunangst 10y ago
  The counter argument is that it's cheaper to do things once than twice. Laying a one foot drainage pipe, then digging it up and replacing with three foot pipe, is way more expensive than just laying three foot pipe to start. Too many public works projects seem to be built right at the edge of confidence.
  - ianai 10y ago
    Let's not forget that public works are generally underfunded and have been for years. people want infrastructure projects but I don't think there's a lobby for it.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    When I wrote that I was thinking of entire sections of roadway that washed away in northern Wisconsin when it rained 10 inches in 12 hours a few weeks ago. My guess is that they should still wait until they wash away again before they build them to withstand such events. http://media.graytvinc.com/images/800*600/iron+co+5.jpg http://media.graytvinc.com/images/800*600/iron+co+5.jpg
  - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
    Doing things once is how you get suburban sprawl that everyone here loves to hate. Drive around some parts of the south and you'll see that the space set aside for infrastructure is only about 50% utilized. There's two and four lane roads with one and two lane widths of grass shoulder between them and the culverts and enough space for a culvert twice as wide before you have to move the sidewalk. I'm a big fan of leaving room for expansion but everything is a tradeoff to some degree.
    - tedunangst 10y ago
      Is that really so terrible? A road with some grass along it?
Spooky23 10y ago
Most northeast cities can handle it, although combined sewer systems mean that heavy rain leads to heavy pollution from raw sewage.
jpalomaki 10y ago
According to this Tokyo is now prepared to handled 50mm/hour rainfall. There are plans to increase this to 75mm/hour level, but that will take around 20 years. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/09/21/national/tokyo-high-risk-devastating-floods-experts-say/ http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/09/21/national/tokyo-h... Handling for example 10 inches (25cm) of rain in half day is quite a challenge on buildup area. Think about a quite small plot of 100m x 100m. From that you get already 1001000.25 = 2500m3 of water and in cities you have square kilometers of paved area where the water needs to be taken somewhere. In somebody is interested in how they are handling this in Tokyo, here's some information: https://japangasm.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-underground-wonder-of-tokyo/ https://japangasm.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-underground-w... and http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/asia/japan-flood-tunnel/ http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/asia/japan-flood-tun...

by kijin 10y ago

American cities need to learn a thing or two from Tokyo. 10 inches of rain in one day is a common occurrence in Japan during the summer, so they are prepared to handle it.

zzalpha 10y ago

You've just described a necessary consequence of uncontrolled climate change: having to change the way we live to cope with the effects. And it's incredibly expensive. And also a luxury of the relative rich west.

maxerickson 10y ago

Yeah, that's sort of the point. This kind of weather hasn't been happening, so infrastructure hasn't been built to handle it. For infrastructure that will last 50 years, it really doesn't make a lot of sense to build it to withstand events that happen roughly every 500 years. Of course things like nuclear plants and dams have to be built to withstand the most severe events, but not every culvert on a country road.

ourmandave 10y ago
And why Atlanta shuts down when there's an 1/4" of snow.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Even in northern states they don't bother having the equipment needed to rapidly respond to a big storm. Detroit gets massively shut down every year or two, and lots of counties in Michigan take a couple of days to really clear most roads from a big storm.
- dpeck 10y ago
  In fairness it was the ice, which is a whole different beast.
tedunangst 10y ago
The counter argument is that it's cheaper to do things once than twice. Laying a one foot drainage pipe, then digging it up and replacing with three foot pipe, is way more expensive than just laying three foot pipe to start. Too many public works projects seem to be built right at the edge of confidence.
- ianai 10y ago
  Let's not forget that public works are generally underfunded and have been for years. people want infrastructure projects but I don't think there's a lobby for it.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  When I wrote that I was thinking of entire sections of roadway that washed away in northern Wisconsin when it rained 10 inches in 12 hours a few weeks ago. My guess is that they should still wait until they wash away again before they build them to withstand such events. http://media.graytvinc.com/images/800*600/iron+co+5.jpg http://media.graytvinc.com/images/800*600/iron+co+5.jpg
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  Doing things once is how you get suburban sprawl that everyone here loves to hate. Drive around some parts of the south and you'll see that the space set aside for infrastructure is only about 50% utilized. There's two and four lane roads with one and two lane widths of grass shoulder between them and the culverts and enough space for a culvert twice as wide before you have to move the sidewalk. I'm a big fan of leaving room for expansion but everything is a tradeoff to some degree.
  - tedunangst 10y ago
    Is that really so terrible? A road with some grass along it?

Spooky23 10y ago

Most northeast cities can handle it, although combined sewer systems mean that heavy rain leads to heavy pollution from raw sewage.

jpalomaki 10y ago

According to this Tokyo is now prepared to handled 50mm/hour rainfall. There are plans to increase this to 75mm/hour level, but that will take around 20 years. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/09/21/national/tokyo-high-risk-devastating-floods-experts-say/ http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/09/21/national/tokyo-h... Handling for example 10 inches (25cm) of rain in half day is quite a challenge on buildup area. Think about a quite small plot of 100m x 100m. From that you get already 1001000.25 = 2500m3 of water and in cities you have square kilometers of paved area where the water needs to be taken somewhere. In somebody is interested in how they are handling this in Tokyo, here's some information: https://japangasm.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-underground-wonder-of-tokyo/ https://japangasm.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-underground-w... and http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/asia/japan-flood-tunnel/ http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/31/world/asia/japan-flood-tun...