6 ms·

Yes, I'm sure I want this. Are you sure you want to get bribed with money for science to completely give up every single shred of independence and autonomy? The

by Kenji 10y ago

Yes, I'm sure I want this. Are you sure you want to get bribed with money for science to completely give up every single shred of independence and autonomy? The issue is much larger than science funding. The issue is that the EU bullies and pushes everyone in Europe around at its whim and people are incredibly fearful of taking back control of their own countries because of EU repercussions. Just think: The EU threatens to cancel student exchanges with Switzerland if the Swiss control their borders again. These are absolutely disgusting power plays: The student exchange has a longstanding tradition and existed way before the EU shat in its diapers, and during a time where border controls were very strict. And now it thinks it can just cancel that? Why isn't anyone calling the EU out on this? The Swiss people voted for something, it would be unconstitutional and even illegal not to do it now. If this does not happen, the Swiss direct democracy has been overruled by the EU, which would be an extremely dangerous and undemocratic precedent.

lukasLansky 10y ago
Do you have source for "EU wants to forbid student exchange between willing parties", or did I misunderstand you and you are trying to say that EU is evil because they don't want to pay for the stuff from EU pocket?
- sievebrain 10y ago
  He didn't say "wants to forbid", he said "is cancelling" and he is referring to the ERASMUS scheme from which Switzerland has been suspended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme Ironically, "the programme is named after the Dutch philosopher Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam, known as an opponent of dogmatism, who lived and worked in many places in Europe to expand his knowledge and gain new insights, and who left his fortune to the University of Basel in Switzerland.[1] At the same time, ERASMUS is a backronym meaning European Region Action Scheme for the Mobility of University Students.[1]"
  - gonvaled 10y ago
    Erasmus is an EU program. Why should Switzerland be allowed to take part in it while breaking the rules that all countries taking part in this program are respecting? Is Switzerland wants to take part in an exchange program with different rules, it should negotiate one with the interested parties (EU and others).
    - sievebrain 10y ago
      Because the EU should not be a collection of artificially bound yet unrelated policies. And don't get me started on respecting the EU rules. Let's talk about that once Germany starts paying big fines to the EU for violating its rules on running trade surpluses, shall we? I quite agree that Switzerland and other countries should start bypassing the EU though. Erasmus is, at least, not one of those things where the EU demands exclusivity.
      - gonvaled 10y ago
        But demands free movement of people. Actually, the EU is happy to negotiate treaties with countries outside the EU. Conditions usually include free movement of people. If the country negotiating does not agree with these terms, the treaty is void. It can try to negatiate a special treaty, but the EU is not usually inclined to do that, for multiple reasons, not least to avoid setting precedents, to avoid effort duplicity, etc EDIT: I forgot the main reason, from my point of view. The EU has been built with the person, the human being, at its center, with the idea that we all have the same rights. And one important right is freedom of movement. A union were goods, money and services can freely move, but people are forbidden to do so is not worth the trouble.
        sievebrain 10y ago
        Free movement of people is never a part of the EU's free trade deals (with non-geographically European countries). Where did you get that idea? Look at CETA or TTIP.
- Kenji 10y ago
  Look, it's a lack of goodwill. The student exchange could easily stay in place, it would be trivial to set up an agreement and if there are costs the EU would have to bear as a consequence, Switzerland could pay it. There aren't that many students. But no, that's not what happens. The EU uses this as another bargaining chip, so it has the students and university faculty in its pockets. The strategy is obvious, and anyone who does not look through it is blind. No, don't sell Switzerland out. Autonomy is much more valuable than a couple of financial and contractual bribes.
  - greendesk 10y ago
    The exchange program depends on synchronization of university syllabi. Without an institution to synchronize them among universities, having Erasmus is more effort. Therefore, no, keeping the exchange program without EU membership and free movement is not easy, if possible at all.
stdbrouw 10y ago
How do you distinguish between a power play and a calm and reasoned "okay, this arrangement is over and therefore so are all of its provisions"? I don't doubt for a second that the EU's diplomats would resort to power plays and threats when they believe it's in their best interests, but dismantling the provisions of a treaty when that treaty no longer exists isn't a repercussion or a threat or bullying, it's just kind of how treaties work.
UlyssesSKrunk 10y ago
>The student exchange has a longstanding tradition and existed way before the EU shat in its diapers, and during a time where border controls were very strict. And now it thinks it can just cancel that? Yes, because now the ability to control that program lies with the UE. That's how it works. >The Swiss people voted for something, it would be unconstitutional and even illegal not to do it now. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it, it's just that doing it violates an agreement Switzerland made with the EU and there are consequences for that. Consequences that were clear to people who bothered to learn about the issue before voting. This isn't some crazy contrived plot to exert control over the Swiss by the EU, it's just the Swiss having to face the consequences of their actions.
- Kenji 10y ago
  > Yes, because now the ability to control that program lies with the UE. That's how it works. Look, just because someone has the ability and legal foundation to do something doesn't mean they aren't a complete douche if they do it. If I was the hackernews admin and would delete all your posts because I disagree with you, that would be a douche thing to do but I would have every right to do it. Similarly, I don't claim the EU does something that is forbidden, but everyone should unite and stand up to manipulative bullying strategies like that.
  - selimthegrim 10y ago
    You sound exactly like the state-level Republican politicians in Louisiana blaming everything bad on the federal government. As a result, a slim majority of Louisiana Republicans blame Obama for the slow Katrina response.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      A seemingly vast majority of Democrats blamed George Bush for the dotcom crash while simultaneously giving Bill Clinton credit for the boom. People don't make a lot of sense when you start scratching their political beliefs.
SCHiM 10y ago
I'm am not saying that you are wrong, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying. However, I do want to point out something peculiar, an assumption underlying your opinion. > "every single shred of independence and autonomy". > "The issue is that the EU bullies and pushes everyone in Europe around at its whim" Why is that a problem? Are the people who govern the EU (or any large government structure) not the same as you are? Do you think they are malicious and exploitive? The loss of your independence is just arbitrary lines. It has happened before, it will happen again. Pushing policy is what it means to govern, people in the opposition will always decry the decisions of those currently behind the wheel by definition. Maybe there is something to be said about undemocratic properties in the current EU structure, I wouldn't know.
- michaelbuddy 10y ago
  > Do you think they are malicious and exploitive? A governing body could just as easily be ignorant or wasteful and the country ends up in the same position. Either way, you get rid of the cancer.
  - jtrip 10y ago
    Then would you suggest anarchy? If not, then where would you draw the line? Also, pardon my ignorance on the topic, but other than the free movement treaty (and the others) that Switzerland signed itself, how does the EU control the country of Switzerland?
    - michaelbuddy 10y ago
      I draw the line at having yet another layer of governing. Wasn't proposing anarchy.
icefo 10y ago
I was talking about a revote because I think that too much people voted thinking: yeah less foreigners sounds good and had no idea of the possible consequences if the swiss diplomats didn't work a miracle As a swiss this saddens me but I think the EU is right to use the big guns because free movement is the foundation of the EU. If the swiss get an exception it would be hard to deny it to other states. "Unfair ! I also want to restrict the number of polish going in my country" I think that the swiss government should focus on punishing salary-dumping because that's what most people are afraid of when they think of foreigners: he's going to do my job for less money. I heard it's a big problem in Tessin. Firms should be able to hire anyone they want but they should give them a swiss salary, swiss or not and pay a big fine if they don't.
- thomasahle 10y ago
  > I think that the swiss government should focus on punishing salary-dumping because that's what most people are afraid of when they think of foreigners: he's going to do my job for less money. I heard it's a big problem in Tessin. This. I hope all countries will take this challenge seriously. It ties in with the whole challenge of inequality splitting our societies.
- superswordfish 10y ago
  They probably ought to recast ballots until the desired outcome. You can't let people make the wrong choice.
- tomp 10y ago
  > I think that the swiss government should focus on p unishing salary-dumping because that's what most people are afraid of when they think of foreigners: he's going to do my job for less money. I heard it's a big problem in Tessin. How exactly would you "punish" this (or otherwise prevent it)? I mean, it happens due to market dynamics, so it's either salary dumping, no free movement of people, or no capitalism!
  - icefo 10y ago
    You raise a good point. Maybe with a minimum wage but the swiss voted against it. I honestly have no other idea.

by Kenji 10y ago

lukasLansky 10y ago

Do you have source for "EU wants to forbid student exchange between willing parties", or did I misunderstand you and you are trying to say that EU is evil because they don't want to pay for the stuff from EU pocket?

sievebrain 10y ago
He didn't say "wants to forbid", he said "is cancelling" and he is referring to the ERASMUS scheme from which Switzerland has been suspended: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme Ironically, "the programme is named after the Dutch philosopher Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam, known as an opponent of dogmatism, who lived and worked in many places in Europe to expand his knowledge and gain new insights, and who left his fortune to the University of Basel in Switzerland.[1] At the same time, ERASMUS is a backronym meaning European Region Action Scheme for the Mobility of University Students.[1]"
- gonvaled 10y ago
  Erasmus is an EU program. Why should Switzerland be allowed to take part in it while breaking the rules that all countries taking part in this program are respecting? Is Switzerland wants to take part in an exchange program with different rules, it should negotiate one with the interested parties (EU and others).
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    Because the EU should not be a collection of artificially bound yet unrelated policies. And don't get me started on respecting the EU rules. Let's talk about that once Germany starts paying big fines to the EU for violating its rules on running trade surpluses, shall we? I quite agree that Switzerland and other countries should start bypassing the EU though. Erasmus is, at least, not one of those things where the EU demands exclusivity.
    - gonvaled 10y ago
      But demands free movement of people. Actually, the EU is happy to negotiate treaties with countries outside the EU. Conditions usually include free movement of people. If the country negotiating does not agree with these terms, the treaty is void. It can try to negatiate a special treaty, but the EU is not usually inclined to do that, for multiple reasons, not least to avoid setting precedents, to avoid effort duplicity, etc EDIT: I forgot the main reason, from my point of view. The EU has been built with the person, the human being, at its center, with the idea that we all have the same rights. And one important right is freedom of movement. A union were goods, money and services can freely move, but people are forbidden to do so is not worth the trouble.
      - sievebrain 10y ago
        Free movement of people is never a part of the EU's free trade deals (with non-geographically European countries). Where did you get that idea? Look at CETA or TTIP.
Kenji 10y ago
Look, it's a lack of goodwill. The student exchange could easily stay in place, it would be trivial to set up an agreement and if there are costs the EU would have to bear as a consequence, Switzerland could pay it. There aren't that many students. But no, that's not what happens. The EU uses this as another bargaining chip, so it has the students and university faculty in its pockets. The strategy is obvious, and anyone who does not look through it is blind. No, don't sell Switzerland out. Autonomy is much more valuable than a couple of financial and contractual bribes.
- greendesk 10y ago
  The exchange program depends on synchronization of university syllabi. Without an institution to synchronize them among universities, having Erasmus is more effort. Therefore, no, keeping the exchange program without EU membership and free movement is not easy, if possible at all.

stdbrouw 10y ago

How do you distinguish between a power play and a calm and reasoned "okay, this arrangement is over and therefore so are all of its provisions"? I don't doubt for a second that the EU's diplomats would resort to power plays and threats when they believe it's in their best interests, but dismantling the provisions of a treaty when that treaty no longer exists isn't a repercussion or a threat or bullying, it's just kind of how treaties work.

UlyssesSKrunk 10y ago

>The student exchange has a longstanding tradition and existed way before the EU shat in its diapers, and during a time where border controls were very strict. And now it thinks it can just cancel that? Yes, because now the ability to control that program lies with the UE. That's how it works. >The Swiss people voted for something, it would be unconstitutional and even illegal not to do it now. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it, it's just that doing it violates an agreement Switzerland made with the EU and there are consequences for that. Consequences that were clear to people who bothered to learn about the issue before voting. This isn't some crazy contrived plot to exert control over the Swiss by the EU, it's just the Swiss having to face the consequences of their actions.

Kenji 10y ago
> Yes, because now the ability to control that program lies with the UE. That's how it works. Look, just because someone has the ability and legal foundation to do something doesn't mean they aren't a complete douche if they do it. If I was the hackernews admin and would delete all your posts because I disagree with you, that would be a douche thing to do but I would have every right to do it. Similarly, I don't claim the EU does something that is forbidden, but everyone should unite and stand up to manipulative bullying strategies like that.
- selimthegrim 10y ago
  You sound exactly like the state-level Republican politicians in Louisiana blaming everything bad on the federal government. As a result, a slim majority of Louisiana Republicans blame Obama for the slow Katrina response.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    A seemingly vast majority of Democrats blamed George Bush for the dotcom crash while simultaneously giving Bill Clinton credit for the boom. People don't make a lot of sense when you start scratching their political beliefs.

SCHiM 10y ago

I'm am not saying that you are wrong, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you are saying. However, I do want to point out something peculiar, an assumption underlying your opinion. > "every single shred of independence and autonomy". > "The issue is that the EU bullies and pushes everyone in Europe around at its whim" Why is that a problem? Are the people who govern the EU (or any large government structure) not the same as you are? Do you think they are malicious and exploitive? The loss of your independence is just arbitrary lines. It has happened before, it will happen again. Pushing policy is what it means to govern, people in the opposition will always decry the decisions of those currently behind the wheel by definition. Maybe there is something to be said about undemocratic properties in the current EU structure, I wouldn't know.

michaelbuddy 10y ago
> Do you think they are malicious and exploitive? A governing body could just as easily be ignorant or wasteful and the country ends up in the same position. Either way, you get rid of the cancer.
- jtrip 10y ago
  Then would you suggest anarchy? If not, then where would you draw the line? Also, pardon my ignorance on the topic, but other than the free movement treaty (and the others) that Switzerland signed itself, how does the EU control the country of Switzerland?
  - michaelbuddy 10y ago
    I draw the line at having yet another layer of governing. Wasn't proposing anarchy.

icefo 10y ago

I was talking about a revote because I think that too much people voted thinking: yeah less foreigners sounds good and had no idea of the possible consequences if the swiss diplomats didn't work a miracle As a swiss this saddens me but I think the EU is right to use the big guns because free movement is the foundation of the EU. If the swiss get an exception it would be hard to deny it to other states. "Unfair ! I also want to restrict the number of polish going in my country" I think that the swiss government should focus on punishing salary-dumping because that's what most people are afraid of when they think of foreigners: he's going to do my job for less money. I heard it's a big problem in Tessin. Firms should be able to hire anyone they want but they should give them a swiss salary, swiss or not and pay a big fine if they don't.

thomasahle 10y ago
> I think that the swiss government should focus on punishing salary-dumping because that's what most people are afraid of when they think of foreigners: he's going to do my job for less money. I heard it's a big problem in Tessin. This. I hope all countries will take this challenge seriously. It ties in with the whole challenge of inequality splitting our societies.
superswordfish 10y ago
They probably ought to recast ballots until the desired outcome. You can't let people make the wrong choice.
tomp 10y ago
> I think that the swiss government should focus on p unishing salary-dumping because that's what most people are afraid of when they think of foreigners: he's going to do my job for less money. I heard it's a big problem in Tessin. How exactly would you "punish" this (or otherwise prevent it)? I mean, it happens due to market dynamics, so it's either salary dumping, no free movement of people, or no capitalism!
- icefo 10y ago
  You raise a good point. Maybe with a minimum wage but the swiss voted against it. I honestly have no other idea.