6 ms·

> I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant You dismiss the possibility that they are rig

by gakada 10y ago

> I know from the way they make up stories about why people voted out and then insult them - its quite unpleasant You dismiss the possibility that they are right. Many people do support Brexit for wholly racist reasons (e.g. my father who wants to 'get the poles out').

tomp 10y ago
That's not racism. Xenophobia, maybe, but obviously not racism.
- saalweachter 10y ago
  Why is it obviously not racism?
  - mhenr18 10y ago
    Suppose you're of the view that a mass influx of people into your country that are willing to work for less than the locals are will do harm to the economy. If one country's economy is weaker than yours and is a source of immigration from people seeking greater opportunity (and who'll do anything to get it, including undercutting locals), is it racist to want to stop immigration from that country? It's definitely protectionist and perhaps xenophobic but I don't think it's racist. (There is a clear distinction between xenophobia and racism - xenophobia is purely about an unjustified dislike for those from other countries while racism is an unjustified dislike for those who look different to you)
  - tomp 10y ago
    Because Polish and British people are of the same race (white/Caucasian).
    - foldr 10y ago
      There are no racial requirements on being British.
    - saalweachter 10y ago
      You do know that historically (and like recently as well) white people -- specifically British and British-descended white people -- have been all sorts of racist towards other people we now consider white (but didn't always), including but not limited to, people of Italian, Irish, Jewish, and, yes, Polish heritage?
      - tomp 10y ago
        I find that quite hard to believe, as I don't see any visual distinction between Brits, Ashkenazi Jews, Irish (unless ginger), northern Italians and Poles. Southern nations could be distinguished (e.g. southern Italians, Spaniards, Greeks), in that case it could have been racism (e.g. in the US they still consider "Hispanics" a different race, although I don't).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- gakada 10y ago
  What's your definition of racism? Under the Equalities Act 2010 'Race includes "colour", "nationality" and "ethnic or national origins"'[1]. I feel like this will only lead to a boring semantic discussion, though. [1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9
- ajb 10y ago
  You might want to think about the fact that you're contradicting someone about their own father. Do you really think you know better?
Normal_gaussian 10y ago
I'm not saying there aren't people that think the ways they are suggesting. What I am saying is that the anecdotes they are giving are fabricated (and admit to being so). An example of what I mean: 'well you can imagine poor Joe Racist living across the river is now worrying about whether his boss can afford the harvest. That's what happens when you're stupid' They will invent false characters with flaws that support their argument. They never claim they are real, they aren't basing it off some real observance or any real account. It's not a useful discussion point and serves to further isolate that community.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  There does seem to be a core of disappointed Remain voters actively trying to paint all Leave voters in the same negative light. My personal experience has been similar to yours, in that it's been surprisingly common to see this among the young, well-educated, normally reasonable people in university cities. As with so many things about the referendum, the problem could just be that a very vocal but actually quite small minority is getting all the attention. I know for a fact which way quite a lot of my friends and family voted, and in private with calm discussion I'd say the majority on either side are willing to debate the issues and often do find a fair bit of common ground if they do. However, many of the Leavers won't say anything about it publicly now, for fear of sustained attacks or even losing friends over it. That does mean that if, say, you look at the Facebook news feeds, they are heavily slanted towards strident Remain advocacy and topics like ignoring the result in Parliament and staying in or throwing Boris in prison, but that is certainly not representative of the overall sentiment among people I know, just the ones who are willing to state their position and live with the consequences.
  - Normal_gaussian 10y ago
    This is both what worries me and reassures me about the future of our country. If this is as bad as it needs to get for large swathes of people to realise the behaviour of parliament needs to change then it spells a bright future. If it gets any worse though, or this isn't enough, then I guess we are pretty much doomed.
  - 10y ago

by gakada 10y ago

tomp 10y ago

That's not racism. Xenophobia, maybe, but obviously not racism.

saalweachter 10y ago
Why is it obviously not racism?
- mhenr18 10y ago
  Suppose you're of the view that a mass influx of people into your country that are willing to work for less than the locals are will do harm to the economy. If one country's economy is weaker than yours and is a source of immigration from people seeking greater opportunity (and who'll do anything to get it, including undercutting locals), is it racist to want to stop immigration from that country? It's definitely protectionist and perhaps xenophobic but I don't think it's racist. (There is a clear distinction between xenophobia and racism - xenophobia is purely about an unjustified dislike for those from other countries while racism is an unjustified dislike for those who look different to you)
- tomp 10y ago
  Because Polish and British people are of the same race (white/Caucasian).
  - foldr 10y ago
    There are no racial requirements on being British.
  - saalweachter 10y ago
    You do know that historically (and like recently as well) white people -- specifically British and British-descended white people -- have been all sorts of racist towards other people we now consider white (but didn't always), including but not limited to, people of Italian, Irish, Jewish, and, yes, Polish heritage?
    - tomp 10y ago
      I find that quite hard to believe, as I don't see any visual distinction between Brits, Ashkenazi Jews, Irish (unless ginger), northern Italians and Poles. Southern nations could be distinguished (e.g. southern Italians, Spaniards, Greeks), in that case it could have been racism (e.g. in the US they still consider "Hispanics" a different race, although I don't).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
gakada 10y ago
What's your definition of racism? Under the Equalities Act 2010 'Race includes "colour", "nationality" and "ethnic or national origins"'[1]. I feel like this will only lead to a boring semantic discussion, though. [1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9
ajb 10y ago
You might want to think about the fact that you're contradicting someone about their own father. Do you really think you know better?

Normal_gaussian 10y ago

I'm not saying there aren't people that think the ways they are suggesting. What I am saying is that the anecdotes they are giving are fabricated (and admit to being so). An example of what I mean: 'well you can imagine poor Joe Racist living across the river is now worrying about whether his boss can afford the harvest. That's what happens when you're stupid' They will invent false characters with flaws that support their argument. They never claim they are real, they aren't basing it off some real observance or any real account. It's not a useful discussion point and serves to further isolate that community.

Silhouette 10y ago
There does seem to be a core of disappointed Remain voters actively trying to paint all Leave voters in the same negative light. My personal experience has been similar to yours, in that it's been surprisingly common to see this among the young, well-educated, normally reasonable people in university cities. As with so many things about the referendum, the problem could just be that a very vocal but actually quite small minority is getting all the attention. I know for a fact which way quite a lot of my friends and family voted, and in private with calm discussion I'd say the majority on either side are willing to debate the issues and often do find a fair bit of common ground if they do. However, many of the Leavers won't say anything about it publicly now, for fear of sustained attacks or even losing friends over it. That does mean that if, say, you look at the Facebook news feeds, they are heavily slanted towards strident Remain advocacy and topics like ignoring the result in Parliament and staying in or throwing Boris in prison, but that is certainly not representative of the overall sentiment among people I know, just the ones who are willing to state their position and live with the consequences.
- Normal_gaussian 10y ago
  This is both what worries me and reassures me about the future of our country. If this is as bad as it needs to get for large swathes of people to realise the behaviour of parliament needs to change then it spells a bright future. If it gets any worse though, or this isn't enough, then I guess we are pretty much doomed.
- 10y ago